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What If George W. Bush had of....?


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#1 Shlomi of Vulcan

 

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 03:43 PM

If George W. Bush had been the first President to need a TelePrompter installed to be able to get through a press conference, would you have laughed and said this is more proof of how inept he is on his own and is really controlled by smarter men behind the scenes?

If George W. Bush had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to take Laura Bush to a play in NYC, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had reduced your retirement plan's holdings of GM stock by 90% and given the unions a majority stake in GM, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special Olympics, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had given Gordon Brown a set of inexpensive and incorrectly formatted DVDs, when Gordon Brown had given him a thoughtful and historically significant gift, would you have approved?


If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod containing videos of his speeches, would you have thought this embarrassingly narcissistic and tacky?

If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had visited Austria and made reference to the nonexistent "Austrian language," would you have brushed it off as a minor slip?

If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and circle of advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current in their income taxes, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had stated that there were 57 states in the United States, would you have said that he is clueless.


If George W. Bush would have flown all the way to Denmark to make a five minute speech about how the Olympics would benefit him walking out his front door in Texas, would you have thought he was a self important, conceited, egotistical jerk.

If George W. Bush had been so Spanish illiterate as to refer to "Cinco de Cuatro" in front of the Mexican ambassador when it was the 5th of May (Cinco de Mayo), and continued to flub it when he tried again, would you have winced in embarrassment?

If George W. Bush had misspelled the word "advice" would you have hammered him for it for years like Dan Quayle and potatoes as proof of what a dunce he is?

If George W. Bush had burned 9,000 gallons of jet fuel to go plant a single tree on Earth Day, would you have concluded he's a hypocrite?

If George W. Bush's administration had okayed Air Force One flying low over millions of people followed by a jet fighter in downtown Manhattan causing widespread panic, would you have wondered whether they actually get what happened on 9-11?

If George W. Bush had failed to send relief aid to flood victims throughout the Midwest with more people killed or made homeless than in New Orleans, would you want it made into a major ongoing political issue with claims of racism and incompetence?

If George W. Bush had created the position of 32 Czars who report directly to him, bypassing the House and Senate on much of what is happening in America, would you have approved.

If George W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a major corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do so, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had proposed to double the national debt, which had taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the debt again within 10 years, would you have approved?



So, tell me again, what is it about President Obama that makes him so brilliant and impressive? Can't think of anything? Don't worry. He's done all this in only 15 months -- so you'll have two years and nine months to come up with an answer.



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#2 sevnson_71

 

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 03:13 PM

Ummm, he DID use teleprompters, often. The only difference with him is he needed glasses to read them :P Also do you really think that the leadership of EITHER party would let one of their sponsored candidates write their own speeches? C'mon now, who are we kidding here! Reagan did as well. Even Clinton, articulate as he was, had a team of speechwriters to filter and sanitize his speeches.

I'm not going to waste my afternoon with this one, I already saw it and worse on Craigslist.
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#3 Shlomi of Vulcan

 

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 04:46 PM

All those points and the tele was the only thing worth a mention from you? (speechwriting wasn't even a point listed). Yeah, you are right though...kind of a waste of time debating the truth when it is so plain to see.

Edited by Shlomi of Vulcan, 03 July 2010 - 04:48 PM.

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#4 poko

 

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 07:21 PM

Probably because most of these statements are dependent on people hating Bush for arbitrary reasons. It assumes there is this great ominous sea of Lefties with only one mind and no ability to reason each situation individually. "OH BUSH DID SOMETHING, LETS HATE HIM!" Its insulting and inaccurate. One thus assumes this comes from someone on the Right who either does hate Obama for everything he does and thus assumes everyone on the Left is like him or perhaps he just assumes everyone on the left is instantly dumber than him.

I'm not going to go through these one by one to defend our current President. You didn't take the time to write this yourself so I don't see why you seem to think sevnson or others has to spend any time responding. Almost none of these 'points' have anything to with either President's ability to lead or their actual policy decisions.

Instead, I push this back at you; Whats the point? Frankly, who is this post directed at? Its needlessly inflammatory to hard-core supporters who won't ever be swayed by this rhetoric. Meanwhile, those in the middle just end up disgusted by the mean-spirtedness of these types of posts. If your goal is to sow division, congratulations.

So be honest, this isn't for the Left. This is just a message for those on the Right to email to each other and then nod and snigger about how much better they understand everything. This type of rhetoric is petty and pointless no matter what side it comes from. We constantly see this stuff produced from whichever side currently isn't in power. All I see are empty talking points with no real substance but I'm sure it makes the losing team feel better about themselves.

Sorry, Sholmi, no ones buying.

Edited by poko, 03 July 2010 - 07:23 PM.

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#5 Shlomi of Vulcan

 

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 02:46 AM

While I may not have written this myself I am in agreement with the point being made by its original author. That point being that our current President is not an improvement over the last one, in fact, in most respects, is actually worse than the last one when it comes to his ability to lead, govern and be an original thinker. The point, as a side, was also that Bush haters aside, the press has given this current President a relative pass when it comes to things such as intelligence, common sense, acting on behave of the public and common good, leadership, knowing his real role as the leader of the United States and figurehead spokesperson for the free world, knowing the limits of his office and exercising good judgement and so forth.

The point being made by the author of this piece is pretty obvious: If George Bush (or any other conservative leader) would have done the things that this current President has done (those listed above) in just 15 months of being in office, he or she would have been smeared by the press, called an idiot, stupid, an abuser of his/her power, a liar, and even a traitor to the Constitution. If the disaster of the Gulf Oil spill had occurred on a conservative President's watch, groups like the Sierra Club, Greenpeace and countless other so-called environmentalist groups would have been calling for impeachment and demanding a thorough investigation from the Attorney General's office or an appointed independent counsel of what kind of connection the President or members of his cabinet may have had with the company involved (such as was done against Cheney and Halliburton during this country's entrance into Iraq). However, the only one's calling for such things are those "crazies on the right".

For anyone truly being honest about these past 15 months and all that has taken place, one must ask and admit that the press and liberal groups as a whole have been very quiet in their judgment against some of the very questionable actions, policies and decisions made by this President and members of his administration. Only now, after the President's taking so long to respond in a leadership way to the disaster in the Gulf are some left-wing stalwarts like James Carvill, Bill Mahr, Chris Matthews and those of their leanings, slightly asking some questions concerning this President's ability to do anything beyond inspirational speaking.

You asked "Who is this posting directed to?" Anyone from any side of the aisle (or even the middle of it) that isn't afraid to look at it and begin wondering if this supposed leader who promised to bring change and a new openess and clarity to the way government does business is real or just another empty suit and mouthpiece for special interests with an agenda that doesn't do anyone any good except those for whom he owes political favors, such as environmentalist, union bosses, big campaign contributors and..... in other words nothing new, no change and business as usual with one slight difference....is this President's agenda to expand the government so large and spend so much that he literally destroys what use to be known as America? If you listen to the Chinese and Russian leadership, they think so and have even said so as recently as last month's G-8 Summit and they aren't lamenting it, they in fact think what Obama is doing by destroying the Republic's foundation in capitalism and free enterprise is a good thing and will allow them to become the new directors of the world's political and financial direction. They are thrilled to see America's collapse on the horizon.

So Poko, no one is asking you to buy anything. You and everyone else are simply being asked to take a hard honest look at and think for yourselves when it comes to this President, his policies and his agenda. Of course, if after doing so honestly, completely and without bias, you find yourself in agreement with what he is doing, then join hands, sing Kumbaya or We Are The World and try to enjoy this new world order that he and others are trying to create. I hope it won't offend you if I don't join in and fight against it with every fiber of my being.
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#6 poko

 

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 04:01 AM

1. Again, a lot of those items on the list aren't really about policy and I don't consider most of those items a huge deal and I didn't consider them big deals when Bush did similar things. A few tacky mistakes matter to the media but people are more interested in the big picture. There, Obama isn't doing so hot but I still stand by the belief that absolutely anyone is better than the possibility of Sara Palin ever taking charge.

2. How do you know about these items if the Media gave Obama a free pass? Anyone who says the Leftist media has been giving Obama a free pass doesn't actually watch the Leftist media; from the Daily Show to MSN to Democracy Now. Though I've seen a few clips from Fox News claiming you can't see these things anywhere else. I don't watch MSN but the Daily show and DN reamed him for quite a few of those items on your copied list. (CNN might not have covered it but thats not because CNN is biased, its because CNN barely resembles news anymore.)

3. Nonsense about Kumbaya or We Are The World aren't really arguments they're just more petty generalizations about a President who happens to have upped our activity on both War fronts. Especially since your original post avoids his handling of the wars, like most other policy discussions. It mainly focuses on grammar and diplomatic gaffs. Just like a lot of Leftists used Bush's gaffs to dismiss him during his presidency.

4. If you think rhetoric like that post EVER sways anyone to change their mind instead of creating more division you aren't paying attention. Think back to when people made fun of Bush's made up words? Did they change your mind?

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#7 sevnson_71

 

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 08:37 AM

Actually I think that actually speaks more to the type of divisive swill that politicos and candidates fling at one another. It doesn't actually solve a damned thing, just makes for crowds of people pointing at one another saying "it's their fault". Meanwhile there is nothing getting done and politicians on both sides are getting fat off of lobbyist kickbacks. The fact that more politician's children go to school to become lobbyists than public servants is clear and damning evidence of this. The fact that people spend more time reading and spreading this rhetorical manure made up by campaign spin doctors and accept it as fact rather than actually watching and learning how our representation in DC manage the problems in our country and what works makes me sick. They don't even know the issues, just that this talking head said it is bad so it must be, and spout a bunch of talking points. We can and have been better than this, and we damned well had better be as the continued existence of our "Great Experiment" is dependent entirely upon it. So please, in the name of whatever deity you follow; don't be lazy and pay attention to this drivel. Study the issues, learn who is doing what, comment on it, make suggestions if you can think of an alternative and be a responsible steward to your nation.
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#8 Shlomi of Vulcan

 

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 11:40 AM

Alright then let's do make it about actions and policy and it can be done by simply using what has already been stated above:

President Obama seems unable to deliver any speech, whether his own or written by someone else, without using a TelePrompTer and of all the next points this tele one is really not a big deal but still important enough to be spoken about since many of his supporters were quick to harp on certain conservatives who either used it allot or wrote reminder notes on their own hands (a time-honored practice commonly used by good debaters for centuries).

Barack Obama spent thousands of the tax payer's dollars to take his wife Michelle to a play in NYC while the country was in economic and unemployment crisis, and while he is certainly free to do so, it reflects a certain amount of aloofness and insensitivity on his part. Can you picture FDR taking his wife to such a night on the town smack in the middle of the Great Depression. No you can't because he wasn't cold enough to do it. This insensitivity factor of President Obama seems to be a recurring theme in his life.

This President has reduced the retirement holdings of GM stock by 90% and made the purely political move of giving unions a majority stake in GM, a move that benefits not the stockholder and investors in that company, but the corrupt union bosses, many who have mafia ties.

This President was insensitive enough to publicly denigrate those who participate in the Special Olympics.

President Obama has consistently embarrassed this country by praising the leadership of communist China with its horrific human rights and poor environmental policies and lifting their ideals as a goal that America should be seeking to follow, or bowing to the likes of China's PM and Saudi Arabia's king, while at the same time ignoring important allies of America such as Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's PM, the Austrian and Polish peoples, Great Britain's Gordon Brown and Queen Elizabeth, all also strong allies of this nation.


This President appears to have gone out of his way to fill his cabinet and circle of advisers with tax-evaders and those who hold financial views completely contrary to those held by 73% of the American people.

He is a man who thinks he governs 57 states instead of 50 simply because that was what was on the TelePrompTer. He has also done this with other important information which leads one to wonder if he even reads the speech at least once before delivering it, and also makes any thinking person wonder if he even believes anything he is prompted to read off the machine. This is important because American's want a leader who actually does believe in some of what he/she talks about.


At a cost of thousands of tax payer's dollars the President flew to Denmark to make a five minute speech about how the Olympics would benefit his home town of Chicago. Yet, he was too busy to represent this country at the funeral of a fellow foreign President and ally, when nearly every other free world leader found the time to make the journey and one night stay. Hell even Putin made the trip.

This one I will leave as is because it speaks volumes of either the insensitivity of this President or his pure stupidity. President Obama gave the okay for Air Force One to fly low over millions of people followed by a jet fighter in downtown Manhattan causing widespread panic post 9/11.
When Katrina hit Louisiana, a natural event that no man, including a President, could stop, the previous President was on the ground on day two of the catastrophe. True he couldn't do much but hug some people and offer them a shoulder to cry on but at least he was there and you couldn't believe how important that was to have your leader at least show up. After the BP disaster (a man-made one that could have been prevented) it was 8 days before Obama even did a fly over and nearly two weeks before his foot touched a beach in which all humans, including the workers cleaning the beach were required to leave, for what even the liberal press called a photo-op that lead to nothing important happening to relieve the situation. We are nearing 3 months post this debacle and nothing much has changed. Where is the uproar? Where is the call for impeachment from the environmental left? Where are the cries of non-leadership on the President's part in this mess? Only James Carvill seems to be consistently beating that drum.

Why has it taken so long for this President and FEMA to send relief aid to flood victims throughout the Midwest where more people have died or lost their homes than in New Orleans? Why isn't this getting the kinds of major press coverage that Katrina received? It just makes some who think beyond their bias wonder.

Czars are nothing new in the US government. They go as far back as the days of FDR. But no President since Obama has had the audacity to appoint as many as 32 Czars is only 12 months. These non-elected and non-appointed persons owe their allegiance, not to the American people by being accountable to the House and Senate, but strictly to the one who appointed them, that being the President of the USA, yet their policies and decisions affect every American on a daily basis.

The President overstepped his authority by ordering the ousting of the CEO of a major corporation. This is a definite breach of the US Constitution. When Ronald Reagan fired every Air Traffic Controller, jobs under the authority of the U.S. President, the press raked him over the coals and sought to find a way to impeach him. Now we have a President exerting an unconstitutional firing of a person from a private, non-government company that is owned by its stockholders, and not a whimper from the press. Some of us are just getting sick and tired of the third estate's double standard.

This President, continuing the the spending policies of his immediate predecessor has doubled the national debt in less than 15 months, a task that all the former Presidents and Congresses took over two hundred years to do. This speaks to one of two things, either this man and his administration, as well as the current House and Senate or so incompetent and out of touch with reality that they make all previous leaders of this land pale by comparison, or, they know exactly what they are doing and have a specific plan to destroy the foundation upon which this country was built over two centuries ago and wish to replace it with one under the complete federal usurpation
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Edited by Shlomi of Vulcan, 04 July 2010 - 11:46 AM.

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#9 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 12:55 PM


Can you picture FDR taking his wife to such a night on the town smack in the middle of the Great Depression. No you can't because he wasn't cold enough to do it.

Actually, I can't because he phloxed his wife's secretary and by the time he was inaugurated they were only still married because he didn't want to carry the stigma of divorce to the election and hurt his chances. But yeah, not being cold works too. :P
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#10 poko

 

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 01:32 PM

Actually, I can't because he phloxed his wife's secretary and by the time he was inaugurated they were only still married because he didn't want to carry the stigma of divorce to the election and hurt his chances. But yeah, not being cold works too. :P

hey if Obama wants to spend his money on showing his wife a good time its clearly an improvement on quite a few recent past presidents. :P

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#11 Shlomi of Vulcan

 

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 02:08 PM

You guys are just sad. Perhaps the world and the people in it are getting exactly what they deserve. It wouldn't be the first time the reset button was pushed. I believe that after so many years in here it is best for me to finally move on and let you crazy kids have it all to your selves. Tootles!
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#12 sevnson_71

 

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 02:36 PM

Sorry to hear you are that rigid in your views Sam, honestly I am. I know you have a good head on your shoulders, but to close your prodigious Vulcan ears to other points of view and narrow your vision to one point of view our conversation will be limited at best and contentious at worst.
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#13 Shlomi of Vulcan

 

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:04 AM

Sorry to hear you are that rigid in your views Sam, honestly I am. I know you have a good head on your shoulders, but to close your prodigious Vulcan ears to other points of view and narrow your vision to one point of view our conversation will be limited at best and contentious at worst.


Just so I close this out with an honest open air moment: I was just thinking the same things about most of you. If I am closed-off or narrow then so are most of the rest of you. The only difference is I am an old man and it is expected that most old foggies like myself get rigid as we age.....but sadly, I find most of you kids more rigid in your youth than I am in my crickediness.

I an open to every point of view, but being open to other's ideas doesn't follow that I agree with them and that, I think, is where you might be getting a bit confused. I don't agree with most of what you and some others on here think about politically, but I am always open to hear what you have to say and contend that I have the right, priviledge and even duty to make my counter views heard as well....and, if I can sway some to my POV in the process, so much the better. I too can still be swayed if the arugment from the other POV is a good and sound one. So far, however, that has rarely happened here because I found most of the POV's given to be rather groundless and in many repects unfounded and naive because my own vast and varied life experiences have proven them to be false. Perhaps, when some of you get a few more years on your backsides then you too will see the futility of what you currently propose and believe to be the best path. Only time and experience can offer that kind of wisdom however, so you kids go on about your merry way and one day you too can watch the children play in their new-found sand box.
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#14 sevnson_71

 

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 10:29 AM

Once again, I am certainly sorry you feel that way.
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So the combination is 1-2-3-4-5. That's the stupidest combination I've ever heard in my life! That's the kind of thing an idiot would have on his luggage!- Dark Helmet; "Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils." - Gen. John Stark; "Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't, and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it." -Robert Frost; "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." - Samuel Adams, Brewer/Patriot
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#15 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:16 AM

Uh, just for the record, I was offering a historical factoid and not a political opinion. I usually don't touch politics with a ten foot pole, because of situations like this.
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#16 poko

 

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 01:39 PM

Hey I appreciate your re-wording. My main issue was the inflammatory wording of the original email chain letter and its lack of originality. You fixed it and made it original. However, I was never really interested in an in depth debate on all these points. Sorry. Some of them I see as non-issues, some I see as BAU from our political elite, and some I think miss the point.

There is one statement you make that I take serious issue with and thats comparing the Oil spill to Katrina. Personally, I don't think they are in anyway comparable. The link Apoco posted this morning says far more about Obama's ongoing failure than what day he visited vs what day Bush visited. Katrina was immediate incident and then it was a recovery effort. The Oil spill is on going and beyond devastating. Bush's main failure during Katrina was in his appointment of the head of FEMA. The real failures during Katrina lay at the feet of the ineptitude of FEMA and the shockingly corrupt LA police and state governments of the region. FEMA as a whole has stunted interstate assistance and is considered a joke by those who have been doing disaster recovery for years. Just because some jack-ass said "George Bush doesn't care about black people," some people seem to think they need to absolve Bush by making the same statement to Obama. Luckily, most people realize Kayne West is an idiot looking for infamy.

In this case Obama has certainly failed. Either through corruption or incompetence. The man he brought in to fix MMS failed completely. Now they're getting rid of MMS and replacing it with a new agency. It amounts to little more than a name change and is BAU. His decision to closing down all the other mines pending a full review (a decision I agree with) was over-turned by some state level federal judge. He's put his faith in BP's clean-up efforts instead of taking charge. He's made vague promises of comprehensive environmental reform without making any tough statements. Yeah, its mostly been a complete bungle on his part but by comparing it to Katrina you do both incidents, and the dead, a grave disservice.

----
Overall I'm not sure what kind of uproar you expect. We've all heard of these incidents so there had to have been some 'uproar.' Personally, I'm more annoyed by the lack of real war coverage than anything else on your list except perhaps the oil spill. Some of its government censoring of the media, something expanded by Bush and Obama. Its steady growth implies to me it has more to do with the powers behind the President than the man himself. Conspiracy theories aside, IMO you won't find much 'uproar' about anything in the TV media, not because of bias or corruption but because of this.

Edited by poko, 05 July 2010 - 01:49 PM.

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#17 Shlomi of Vulcan

 

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 02:08 PM

Hey I appreciate your re-wording. My main issue was the inflammatory wording of the original email chain letter and its lack of originality. You fixed it and made it original. However, I was never really interested in an in depth debate on all these points. Sorry. Some of them I see as non-issues, some I see as BAU from our political elite, and some I think miss the point.

There is one statement you make that I take serious issue with and thats comparing the Oil spill to Katrina. Personally, I don't think they are in anyway comparable. The link Apoco posted this morning says far more about Obama's ongoing failure than what day he visited vs what day Bush visited. Katrina was immediate incident and then it was a recovery effort. The Oil spill is on going and beyond devastating. Bush's main failure during Katrina was in his appointment of the head of FEMA. The real failures during Katrina lay at the feet of the ineptitude of FEMA and the shockingly corrupt LA police and state governments of the region. FEMA as a whole has stunted interstate assistance and is considered a joke by those who have been doing disaster recovery for years. Just because some jack-ass said "George Bush doesn't care about black people," some people seem to think they need to absolve Bush by making the same statement to Obama. Luckily, most people realize Kayne West is an idiot looking for infamy.

In this case Obama has certainly failed. Either through corruption or incompetence. The man he brought in to fix MMS failed completely. Now they're getting rid of MMS and replacing it with a new agency. It amounts to little more than a name change and is BAU. His decision to closing down all the other mines pending a full review (a decision I agree with) was over-turned by some state level federal judge. He's put his faith in BP's clean-up efforts instead of taking charge. He's made vague promises of comprehensive environmental reform without making any tough statements. Yeah, its mostly been a complete bungle on his part but by comparing it to Katrina you do both incidents, and the dead, a grave disservice.

----
Overall I'm not sure what kind of uproar you expect. We've all heard of these incidents so there had to have been some 'uproar.' Personally, I'm more annoyed by the lack of real war coverage than anything else on your list except perhaps the oil spill. Some of its government censoring of the media, something expanded by Bush and Obama. Its steady growth implies to me it has more to do with the powers behind the President than the man himself. Conspiracy theories aside, IMO you won't find much 'uproar' about anything in the TV media, not because of bias or corruption but because of this.


I promise this is my last post in the Political section ....... Promise! ;)

Poko, you have given a very reasoned and well thought-out response as it relates to the two disasters, and I agree with you on almost every point as it relates to what has taken place in the Gulf under both the Bush and Obama administration. While these two seperate but not unrelated events may yet prove that it isn't a case of either man failing per se, it may, however, point more of a commentary on the inability of a federal bureacracy to accomplish anything of an emergent fashion and perhaps that it should be left in the hands of the local leadership onsite, as happened in Oogaloosa County Florida panhandle. Once the acute situation has been taken care of then there is room for the Feds to come in with the financial resources to finish the job already begun by the locals. But, the hands of local leaders must be untied and allowed to function without federal government interference until the matter is well in hand and managable by an inept federal bureaucracy.
"Having problems with the present? Find solace in the fact that some future generations will call these "the good ole' days." Shmu'el Ben Shalom

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#18 JulesLuvsShinzon

 

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 11:56 AM

Shlomi - if that really is your last ever post, then can I recommend a site that would not only welcome the inflammatory rubbish posted at the top of ths thread, but would also embrace you as a member with whom they could snigger and pat each other on the backs for being such good Republicans? It's called RightNationUS and I think it's your true, spiritual home. Sure there are a few nutters posting there too, but otherwise you'll be in good company. :cheers:

#19 sevnson_71

 

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 06:41 PM

I think everyone who is going to has said their piece here.
Go forth agreeing to disagree...
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