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#1 Kirok

 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 07:11 AM

The lady Belfear of L'Stok (my 23 yo daughter) has pointed out to me a groundswell amongst World Of Warcraft gamers to have a fan-produced character made a Boss on the new Bilgewater Cartel. As the thread starter, Sarpa, put it...

There are SO few great female Lore characters and leaders. In fact, Sylvanas is the ONLY racial female faction leader right now. How delightful and unexpected would it be for Goblins of all people to have one? A tall all business Goblin woman who runs the new Bilgewater Cartel!

The Bilgewater situation leaves things so wide open to anyone amongst them to step up and prove themselves. It would be all too awesome to finally see a woman do this. Particularly one who isn't all vengeance and pms (Sylvanas) or peacemaker Healie McHealerson (Jaina). Let's see a silly but kick butt business woman who knows how to wheel and deal her way around Garrosh and secure a place for her people in the Horde.

If you do this, Blizz... I won't even really care anymore if female Worgen are little sexpot foxes from Disney's Robin Hood. I'd fangirl so hard over this new Trade Prince, I'd seriously not even bat an eye.

OK, so a lot of that went over my head but the thing that interests me is that this is a case of the gaming community wanting to have a say in the direction of the game play of a major MMOG. The strength of the groundswell can be gauged by the sheer size of the thread talking about it - 238pages as we speak! - and the amount of fan produced work that has sprung up over the course of four month. Sarpa has kept the opening post updated with work as she finds it and has...
  • 39 pieces of fan art
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What worries me though is that to join the guild you just have to "whisper to any guild member" [Looks nervously over his shoulder] Spooky, huh?

K

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#2 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 08:29 AM

They did not just bad-mouth Jaina. :P

Also, she forgot Tyrande. That's another female racial leader.

Anyhoo, I'm all for more female characters, but I can't possibly take Goblins seriously, so I don't really care either way if the Bilgewater leader is female. *Shrug.* I'd sooner see a new non-racial leader female character from another race. Or maybe they could just give more attention to some old female characters. Shandris Feathermoon and Lady Liadrin deserve more time in the spotlight, I say.

#3 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 12:39 PM

Whoooo Maiev Shadowsong!
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#4 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 09:41 PM

I still say she's not half as cool as her brother. :P

Besides, I'm pretty sure Maiev is dead.

#5 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 09:53 PM

There is no evidence in either direction. But she is by far my favorite Alliance character, just because she's a badass.
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#6 Belfear

 

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 08:39 AM

I believe what we were trying to emphasise was NOT 'omg! need more female!' but that this is a FAN-MADE character.
Way to totally miss the point >.>
Never has the WoW community rallied around something this much! As of yet there are no blue posts on the thread - which can be good or bad; good - they're going to use the idea and don't want to ruin the surprise, bad - they're just ignoring us and don't want to crush our hopes and dreams.
Now as a reply to the 'oh we have other female racial leaders' and quoting a short but memorable list of female leads in current WoW; Tyrande is actually a step-in for Malfurion Stormrage - the only thing that points her out as a 'racial leader' is that you have to kill her for the raid quest "For the Horde" in Darnassus. As for Maiev Shadowsong... 1: she's not dead, she's in a jail in Shadowmoon Valley called 'The Warden's Cage', and 2: She's not a racial class leader. In fact the only female racial class leader would be Sylvanas, because after all - Jaina is a human (And not a healer, as the poster erroneously referred to her as...), as is King Varian Wrynn. Sylvanas is the only leader of a race of beings on Azeroth all of her own... and let's face it; all that she's concerned about is revenge, revenge, revenge.
This new character would be a business-woman. She's crazy, unpredictable and savvy in a world run by the other Trade Princes. She's just as likely to strap herself to a rocket and blast into the middle of a war and emerge unscathed as she is to double-cross and talk her way out of a tight spot. She likes making things explode and counting her coins!
What is there not to take seriously about goblins?! It's like saying that you don't take Ferengi seriously -.- and we all know what happens when you do that!
The reason why I asked my father to post this on Trek United is because of the immense support I'd heard that you guys have to fan movements. We, as a group of players on WoW, are trying to rustle up as much support for this particular character mainly because it would mark a HUGE change in the way that Blizzard design games and respond to players.
Please, if it doesn't have any interest for you please try and spread it around the net to any other people that you think may be interested in changing the face of MMORPGs :)

For the Glory of Her Tallest!
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#7 Kirok

 

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 08:46 AM

For the Glory of Her Tallest!
Xx

Ah! Daddy's little girl! (She hates that!) And she says that I have a fixation with Star Trek! :innocent: At least we've never said to each other, "Get a life!"

We both have lives thank you very much... um very rich and involved lives that revolve around fictional worlds!

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#8 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 09:19 AM

There is no evidence in either direction. But she is by far my favorite Alliance character, just because she's a badass.


Admittedly, it's just a guess on my part, but it's a pretty safe bet when you consider how things turned out between her and Illidan (IMO, anyway). I picture her wandering into the wilds of Outland and never returning.

I believe what we were trying to emphasise was NOT 'omg! need more female!' but that this is a FAN-MADE character.
Way to totally miss the point >.>


I do believe that a large part of the original poster's point was that WoW needed another female character, and much of your reply seems to indicate that that is what's significant about this fan-made character. I do get why it was posted here and the significance of trying to get a fan made character in there. Just because I gave my thoughts on the character itself doesn't mean I missed the point.

Tyrande is actually a step-in for Malfurion Stormrage - the only thing that points her out as a 'racial leader' is that you have to kill her for the raid quest "For the Horde" in Darnassus


This is going to sound pretty snobby, but please trust me when I say that I do not mean it that way: clearly you didn't play Warcraft III. Tyrande is the supreme political and military leader of the Night Elves. Malfurion is more like her adviser (albeit an adviser with a great deal of power and influence of his own). Night Elves are by nature matriarchal; they wouldn't accept a man as their leader.

To put it more simply: Tyrande rules the Night Elves, and Malfurion rules the Cenarion Circle. They have different areas of influence.

What is there not to take seriously about goblins?!


Um, everything? Don't get me wrong; I think Goblins are made of awesome. But they're strictly comedy relief in my book.

It's like saying that you don't take Ferengi seriously -.- and we all know what happens when you do that!


Do not get me started on the Ferengi.

Edit: BTW, is the "Belf" in your name a reference to Blood Elves? If so, I must immediately hug you and say "anaralah belore."

#9 Terilynn

 

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 09:37 AM

Welcome Belfear! I salute your passion! :buttrock:

#10 Kirok

 

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 02:30 PM

I do believe that a large part of the original poster's point was that WoW needed another female character, and much of your reply seems to indicate that that is what's significant about this fan-made character. I do get why it was posted here and the significance of trying to get a fan made character in there. Just because I gave my thoughts on the character itself doesn't mean I missed the point.

Perhaps, but the point of this thread is that it is a fan produced character. I've never played WoW (because they told me that the dwarf name Grumpy had been taken) but I've had a lot of interaction with my two scion about the game, and the pertinent fact of the original post IMO was that the character they've created is a fun and three-dimensional character rather than the fact that she is female. Be that as it may, my point is that fan interaction like this is something that MMOG's should foster rather than resist.

Edit: BTW, is the "Belf" in your name a reference to Blood Elves? If so, I must immediately hug you and say "anaralah belore."


He last main was a boomkin I think.

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#11 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 06:00 PM

I believe what we were trying to emphasise was NOT 'omg! need more female!' but that this is a FAN-MADE character.
Way to totally miss the point >.>

We didn't miss the point; rather, we raised a new one. We say that more attention should be paid to the existing female characters that we love, rather than (or in addition to) a new character. The point is that the characters that we love, whether they're male or female, have been around since the RTSes, and we've loved them since we played those games. I'm all for new characters, but I can't possibly see one who is introduced in the Cataclysm to hold as much sway with me as, say, Maiev Shadowsong or Thrall. So, if I may speak for EE here, we would rather existing characters be given this kind of attention.

As for Maiev Shadowsong... 1: she's not dead, she's in a jail in Shadowmoon Valley called 'The Warden's Cage', and 2: She's not a racial class leader.... Sylvanas is the only leader of a race of beings on Azeroth all of her own... and let's face it; all that she's concerned about is revenge, revenge, revenge.

Actually Maiev participated in the raid on the Black Temple and helped to kill Illidan, after which she disappeared when she realized her only purpose in life was finished. And no, she's not a racial leader, I just brought her up because EE said, "maybe they could just give more attention to some old female characters."
As far as Sylvanas goes: Captain Ahab was only concerned with revenge. So was Hamlet. Doesn't mean they're not great characters in their own right.

She likes making things explode and counting her coins!

What goblin doesn't? :P

What is there not to take seriously about goblins?! It's like saying that you don't take Ferengi seriously -.- and we all know what happens when you do that!

Well, when it comes to anything not directly related to business, one should never take a Ferengi seriously. Goblins are comic relief characters, yes, but so are gnomes. That doesn't mean they won't have a great impact upon the history of the world, and the lore.

Admittedly, it's just a guess on my part, but it's a pretty safe bet when you consider how things turned out between her and Illidan (IMO, anyway). I picture her wandering into the wilds of Outland and never returning.

Well, I picture her doing that but then returning SOMEHOW MORE BADASS THEN EVER BEFORE. I will honestly be extraordinarily disappointed if I never see her again. It's a good opportunity to make the character into something... more. And then maybe you wouldn't complain about her being one-dimensional. :P

Perhaps, but the point of this thread is that it is a fan produced character. I've never played WoW (because they told me that the dwarf name Grumpy had been taken) but I've had a lot of interaction with my two scion about the game, and the pertinent fact of the original post IMO was that the character they've created is a fun and three-dimensional character rather than the fact that she is female. Be that as it may, my point is that fan interaction like this is something that MMOG's should foster rather than resist.

Okay, to finally offer my opinions on the original subject of the thread (probably wasn't the best idea to do this at the bottom of the post):
I trust Blizzard far too much to lend any support to this. If they want to include it, they can include it, but if they refuse, then they shouldn't even have to list reasons why. They've successfully made multiple games filled with rich fantasy lore that is some of the best in the world, and they have the final say on the subject no matter what. Honestly, I feel a little bit of trepidation if they do include it, because I don't trust fans to create the lore... that's not their place at all. Leave it to fan fiction. I want Blizzard to create a character because the character fits within the world, not because thousands of fans clamored for it until they finally gave in. And in this situation, if the fans have their way, there won't really ever be a 100% possiblity that Blizzard didn't do it just to appease.
I'm saying I want my Warcraft in a 100% pure, distilled form, and I don't trust fans to make the quality of stuff that Blizzard does. I have no doubt Blizz could make the character work, but fans should really only be consulted when discussing gameplay, or balance, or things like that, not story. That's the writer's job.

Edited by Apocalypse, 16 June 2010 - 06:03 PM.

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#12 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 08:28 PM

He last main was a boomkin I think.


Well, that's cool too. I'm currently planning on making a Worgen boomkin come the next expansion.

Perhaps, but the point of this thread is that it is a fan produced character. I've never played WoW (because they told me that the dwarf name Grumpy had been taken) but I've had a lot of interaction with my two scion about the game, and the pertinent fact of the original post IMO was that the character they've created is a fun and three-dimensional character rather than the fact that she is female. Be that as it may, my point is that fan interaction like this is something that MMOG's should foster rather than resist.


I don't think giving opinions on the character can be separated from the idea of it being fan made. My opinion on whether a fan made character should be introduced depends on what I think of the character. I'm explaining why I'm skeptical.

So, if I may speak for EE here, we would rather existing characters be given this kind of attention.


Indeed. Warcraft has been very good at adding interesting characters lately; they haven't been so good at developing them. Where were Voren'thal and Liadrin during the war with the Lich King? Where was A'dal? Prophet Velen? Fandral Staghelm? Heck, Tyrande's in serious need of something to do other than sitting around in the Temple of the Moon.

As far as Sylvanas goes: Captain Ahab was only concerned with revenge. So was Hamlet. Doesn't mean they're not great characters in their own right.


:nod:

That doesn't mean they won't have a great impact upon the history of the world, and the lore.


*Holds tongue.*

It's a good opportunity to make the character into something... more. And then maybe you wouldn't complain about her being one-dimensional. public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif


I'm surprised to be saying this, but you may have a point. She's been nothing but petty all her life (I don't know if you read "War of the Ancients," but if you did, you know she was a female dog long before she spent ten thousand years underground); it might be interesting to see her find something meaningful to do with her life beyond her own selfish desires. Heck, with all the Naaru around, it's not like she would have had to have gone far to find redemption.

I trust Blizzard far too much to lend any support to this. If they want to include it, they can include it, but if they refuse, then they shouldn't even have to list reasons why. They've successfully made multiple games filled with rich fantasy lore that is some of the best in the world, and they have the final say on the subject no matter what. Honestly, I feel a little bit of trepidation if they do include it, because I don't trust fans to create the lore... that's not their place at all. Leave it to fan fiction. I want Blizzard to create a character because the character fits within the world, not because thousands of fans clamored for it until they finally gave in. And in this situation, if the fans have their way, there won't really ever be a 100% possiblity that Blizzard didn't do it just to appease.


I mostly agree. I don't 100% trust Blizzard to do a good job anymore (although WotLK went a long way to restoring my faith), but I think I'd sooner go with the devil I know, so to speak.

#13 Belfear

 

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:32 AM

Edit: BTW, is the "Belf" in your name a reference to Blood Elves? If so, I must immediately hug you and say "anaralah belore."


Got it in one :D

#14 Kirok

 

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 05:00 AM

Okay, to finally offer my opinions on the original subject of the thread (probably wasn't the best idea to do this at the bottom of the post):
I trust Blizzard far too much to lend any support to this. If they want to include it, they can include it, but if they refuse, then they shouldn't even have to list reasons why. They've successfully made multiple games filled with rich fantasy lore that is some of the best in the world, and they have the final say on the subject no matter what. Honestly, I feel a little bit of trepidation if they do include it, because I don't trust fans to create the lore... that's not their place at all. Leave it to fan fiction. I want Blizzard to create a character because the character fits within the world, not because thousands of fans clamored for it until they finally gave in. And in this situation, if the fans have their way, there won't really ever be a 100% possiblity that Blizzard didn't do it just to appease.
I'm saying I want my Warcraft in a 100% pure, distilled form, and I don't trust fans to make the quality of stuff that Blizzard does. I have no doubt Blizz could make the character work, but fans should really only be consulted when discussing gameplay, or balance, or things like that, not story. That's the writer's job.

I can appreciate your point, you've paid good money for your subscription and deserve to get the best return for it but I'd like to raise two points about this idea.

The first is to make sure that we are judging this character on its objective, creative value and not a subjective prejudice. You've made your case Apocalypse on the fact that you want your characters to be professionally made rather than fan-made. Looked at one way, no one can deny that a professional will usually create something better than an amateur, if they didn't they wouldn't be a commercial success and they would be an out-of-work professional. However this can also be read as saying that fan work is intrinsically inferior in its nature and this is something that I will take issue with to my dying breath. I have read some terrible fan fiction but I have read some equally bad original fiction - Hell, I've read some professional fiction that wouldn't make it as fan fic! The difference is in the skill and talent of the author, NOT some rubber stamp that says "this is fan-made therefore it MUST be inferior".

Which way did you mean, Apocalypse?

The other point is that what they would be doing would be just plain good business practice in giving the customer what they want. CBS Paramount went back to TOS for their latest movie not just because JJ specifically wanted that era, I'm guessing that they did a lot of market research into what the prospective audiences wanted. Part of that research would have been based on the popularity of the TOS-based fan films, Phase II and Exeter and Farragut. The fans - the people who pay money to watch the shows and buy the merchandise - wanted to see TOS so much they created their own shows.

Gaming is, by definition, interactive role-playing. I understand that there is a whole science behind game theory, in fact my son and I have discussed the way that getting the right mixture of skills and potions and whatever for PvP can be expressed in mathematical formulae. If we assume for a moment that the character of Her Tallness has roleplaying and gaming potential then it is to the benefit of the game and the gaming community to include it. In fact, if it is not then I believe that Blizzard has a case to explain as to why it doesn't include it.

I can think of a few commercial sticking points that make the commercial use of fan-made creations a little awkward, primarily in terms of intellectual property. They would need to get some sort of agreement or waiver from the people or group who created and developed the character to say that they allowed Blizzard to market the character in any way they saw fit and that they would not make any claims for recompense from them. Otherwise if Blizzard's popularity went up, or they made a profit from Her Tallness plush toys, one of the creators might have a case for saying, "that's my creation and I want a cut!"

I don't want to sound negative towards Blizzard who have delivered a good product and have shown themselves to be very tolerant of fan produced works in the past. Its just my philosophy of fan production that we should be regarded as the partners of copyright owners and not their rivals. I'm looking at this in the wider context of whether fan produced characters could be an asset to MMOGs such as WoW or STO.

Cheers

K

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#15 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 03:03 PM

The first is to make sure that we are judging this character on its objective, creative value and not a subjective prejudice. You've made your case Apocalypse on the fact that you want your characters to be professionally made rather than fan-made. Looked at one way, no one can deny that a professional will usually create something better than an amateur, if they didn't they wouldn't be a commercial success and they would be an out-of-work professional. However this can also be read as saying that fan work is intrinsically inferior in its nature and this is something that I will take issue with to my dying breath. I have read some terrible fan fiction but I have read some equally bad original fiction - Hell, I've read some professional fiction that wouldn't make it as fan fic! The difference is in the skill and talent of the author, NOT some rubber stamp that says "this is fan-made therefore it MUST be inferior".

Which way did you mean, Apocalypse?

I have a rule of thumb that says "disregard fan fic" that has many reasons to support it, of which the quality of the work may be the least. But, not to go into that giant debate again (this is certainly not the first time it's been brought up) let's just say I'm a stickler for quality. I realize that fan fiction can be good, and that professional works can be terrible, but I won't look into either until I have some sort of assurance on quality. For Blizzard, that assurance is their track record, something the fans don't have, because they have never been involved with canon projects. So, as I said before, I trust Blizzard 100%. I won't support this, but I won't oppose it, because the creators will do what they think is right for their universe, and they've done a good job so far. I have no reason to doubt them.
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#16 Kirok

 

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:52 AM

I have a rule of thumb that says "disregard fan fic" that has many reasons to support it, of which the quality of the work may be the least.

That's unfortunate because it means you are missing out on some good work. <shrugs> We all have our prejudices - personally I never start a trilogy unless I have it on good authority that it is worth it. A trilogy should be like a Triptych whose content is unique but connected NOT one plot drawn out to get more sales. Look at the trilogies you've read and be honest - how many fit in the latter category?

As regards fans not having a good track record for games, you couldn't be more wrong. Fan mods have elongated the shelf-life of Trek games and to some extent surpassed them so that frankly the bar is set pretty high for new entrants to the genre <coughLegacycough>. For Star Trek gaming, fan interaction has always been one of its strong points. Personally I'm just saving up so that I can get my hardware up to a standard so that I can have a go at ST Online specifically for the PvP roleplaying... and to have a crack at a STO machinima!

K

PS - You'd especially get a kick out Ensign Sue Must Die! Think of it as a satire rather than a fan production.

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#17 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 05:47 AM

As regards fans not having a good track record for games, you couldn't be more wrong. Fan mods have elongated the shelf-life of Trek games and to some extent surpassed them so that frankly the bar is set pretty high for new entrants to the genre <coughLegacycough>. For Star Trek gaming, fan interaction has always been one of its strong points. Personally I'm just saving up so that I can get my hardware up to a standard so that I can have a go at ST Online specifically for the PvP roleplaying... and to have a crack at a STO machinima!

I'm not referring at all to Trek games... I've played Legacy, and I've had a hand at STO, and I didn't like either. Consider my comment aimed solely in the direction of the Warcraft universe. I haven't seen any fan contributions that are worthwhile... it doesn't mean that they're not out there, it just means that I can't and won't vouch for future fan contributions.
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#18 Kirok

 

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 09:42 AM

I'm not referring at all to Trek games... I've played Legacy, and I've had a hand at STO, and I didn't like either. Consider my comment aimed solely in the direction of the Warcraft universe. I haven't seen any fan contributions that are worthwhile... it doesn't mean that they're not out there, it just means that I can't and won't vouch for future fan contributions.

Now here I'm on a bit more shakey ground. As far as I know Blizzard actually go out of their way to make sure that fans can't modify their game - I remember the-heir-to-the-family-curse saying that the program that that the addons that WoW machinima producers use to build and skin their maquettes (was it WoW model viewer?) cannot create clothes etc that can be used in the game. I understand the reasoning behind this - this kind of modelling could give players custom-built characters that would give them an unfair advantage - and seen from a purely gaming point of view, they have a legitimate point.

So saying that you "haven't seen any fan contributions that are worthwhile" from a game-modding point of view is a bit of a null statement: you haven't seen any because there are none because Blizzard have made them illegal. You will never know if there are any worthwhile fan gaming mods for Warcraft until Blizzard allows them.

If on the other hand you are talking about fan-made Role-playing add-ons that is a horse of an entirely different colour! They get around the Blizzard gaming block by being unable to affect game-play and only working between players who have the same add-on. A couple that THTTFC votes as potentially able to make an entirely new role-playing environment within WoW are ...
  • Gryphonheart items - creates items that can be used by people with the addon, including books. This means that you can virtually publish fan fiction on WoW
  • MyQuests - lets users create their own quests for themselves and others, and lets them partake in other users' quests.
Thirdly, and here I'm on slightly firmer ground, there are some beautiful WoW fan productions. For those who want to look at them I will pick three that I recommend...
  • Looking For Group, a published, commercially available comic that started as a fan publication. This is top quality art and writing!

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"You saw it! That orphanage attacked me!"

Apocalypse, if you trust Blizzard then trust them when they say that they support their gaming community's fan production efforts.

Cheers

K

Latest releases !!! ~ March 11 - HFO Personal Logs 2 ~ March 19 - PD Smith-Tales From the Fleet 01 : Species 571 ~ March 11 - Bruffy-NovaTrek06 : A Tale Of Two Captains, Pt 2 ~
Kirok of L'Stok - Director of Media ..... "I love deadlines! I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly by!" - Douglas Adams

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#19 Kirok

 

Kirok

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 08:58 AM

Just to show you what kind of a serious gamer the Lady Belfear is, this is a photograph of her at yesterday's SupaNova...

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Illidin made the mistake of trying to get his War Glaves back!

K

Latest releases !!! ~ March 11 - HFO Personal Logs 2 ~ March 19 - PD Smith-Tales From the Fleet 01 : Species 571 ~ March 11 - Bruffy-NovaTrek06 : A Tale Of Two Captains, Pt 2 ~
Kirok of L'Stok - Director of Media ..... "I love deadlines! I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly by!" - Douglas Adams

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#20 ensign edwards

 

ensign edwards

    Player of all things Warcraft

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 10:19 AM

Okay, that's awesome. I went out as a demon hunter on Halloween once, but my costume was nowhere near that good.




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