[Shlomi of Vulcan]

From: "David LaBonte"
My wife, Rosemary, wrote a wonderful letter to the editor of the OC Register which, of course, was not printed. So, I decided to "print" it myself by sending it out on the Internet. Pass it along if you feel so inclined. Written in response to a series of letters to the editor in the Orange County Register:

Dear Editor:
So many letter writers have based their arguments on how this land was made and writers have based their arguments on how this land is made up of immigrants. Ernie Lujan for one, suggests we should tear down the Statue of Liberty because the people now in question aren't being treated the same as those who passed through Ellis Island and other ports of entry.

Maybe we should turn to our history books and point out to people like Mr. Lujan why today's American is not willing to accept this new kind of immigrant any longer. Back in 1900 when there was a rush from all areas of Europe to come to the United States, people had to get off a ship and stand in a long line in New York and be documented. Some would even get down on their hands and knees and kiss the ground. They made a pledge to uphold the laws and support their new country in good and bad times. They made learning English a primary rule in their new American households and some even changed their names to blend in with their new home.

They had waved good bye to their birth place to give their children a new life and did everything in their power to help their children assimilate into one culture. Nothing was handed to them. No free lunches, no welfare, no labor laws to protect them. All they had were the skills and craftsmanship they had brought with them to trade for a future of prosperity.

Most of their children came of age when World War II broke out. My father fought along side men whose parents had come straight over from Germany , Italy , France and Japan . None of these 1st generation Americans ever gave any thought about what country their parents had come from. They were Americans fighting Hitler, Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan . They were defending the United States of America as one people.

When we liberated France , no one in those villages were looking for the French-American or the German American or the Irish American. The people of France saw only Americans. And we carried one flag that represented one country. Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country's flag and waving it to represent who they were. It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here. These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be an American. They stirred the melting pot into one red, white and blue bowl.

And here we are with a new kind of immigrant who wants the same rights and privileges. Only they want to achieve it by playing with a different set of rules, one that includes the entitlement card and a guarantee of being faithful to their mother country. I'm sorry, that's not what being an American is all about. I believe that the immigrants who landed on Ellis Island in the early 1900's deserve better than that for all the toil, hard work and sacrifice in raising future generations to create a land that has become a beacon for those legally searching for a better life. I think they would be appalled that they are being used as an example by those waving foreign country flags.

And for that suggestion about taking down the Statue of Liberty , it happens to mean a lot to the citizens who are voting on the immigration bill. I wouldn't start talking about dismantling the United States just yet.

(signed) Rosemary LaBonte

[Bill]

Great letter Sam!

[ensign edwards]

I'd think you could come up with better arguments about immigration beyond "people like to stay true to their cultural roots now." Seriously, how does that hurt anyone?

[sevnson_71]

Well it is less that I think than in the past people were willing to cede to the "when in Rome" rule when they came here, learning the language and how our government works. With some ethnicities that enter now they aren't willing to. They see coming to the US as more of a mercenary act where they come from their homeland make US Dollars send what they don't use back then go home instead of coming here to make a life for themselves. I can say I have met people who do this. But in the eyes of many people who are citizens either by birth or immigrants this takes jobs away from people who are trying to make a life for themselves in the here and now, especially in a market where there are fewer jobs than workers seeking to fill them. It is like someone buying up houses and flipping them for a profit, but in doing so artificially inflating the local market by reducing the available homes. Weird analogy I know but it is the best comparison I can draw at the moment. But in my eyes it has just as much to do with employers willing to hire an illegal at a cut-rate and not document them on the payroll. They could just as easily say no papers no job but greed overrides that.

[Trek Realist]

With all respect to Shlomi's wife, I honestly think that while there are many laudable sentiments expressed in the letter, I think a very broad brush has been used to paint this picture.

The last couple of years of political debate and diatribe in America has become increasingly polarized on almost every key point imaginable. There is a growing and aggressive attempt by everyone to set into stone what the ideal of "Civis Americanus" means and what it should entail. Distressingly, these debates are increasingly using broader and more vague descriptions to describe what qualifies and doesn't qualify as the American Ideal. To say that all new immigrants are this and all old immigrants are that is patently simplistic and smacks more of the Beck/Limbaugh/O'Reilly schools of reactionary thought than it does of the true American ideal of judging a person by their actions.

The America of today does not even remotely resemble the America of a century ago, and the immigrant of today is farther still from the immigrants of that yesteryear. 100 years ago immigrants to America were mostly European and Russian ... mostly caucasian with trade skills that were needed in the United States. Today's immigrant's don't have the same commonality that majority Americans shared with their European bretheren. Today's immigrants come from parts of the world where tribalism is more common than nationalism and where the tales of the excesses of the American rich rival those of the Greek and Roman gods themselves. So, how can you expect these people from parts of the world that have been on the short end of the stick in regards to American and European imperialism to act in the face of such excessive and obvious consumption.

Personally, I don't think you can complain about the quality of the immigrants who come to your shore if the quality of the people in the most lofty reaches of your own society behave in such an abhorrent manner.

PS, okay ... my bad, I didn't realize that was not Shlomi's wife

[shinkai]

This is one of the few issues that has me leaning a bit conservative. It doesn't help *anyone* for wages to be driven down because greedy phloxtards would rather hire people they can take advantage of.

I have nothing against people wanting to be a legitimate part of our society and still retain their cultural heritage. Diversity is wonderful, but I do think it's better for everyone if we can all communicate. For those that think it's easier to make everyone learn Spanish, I'd say it's a pretty narrow view to think it's only Spanish speaking people who are coming to this country.

I would love to see some kind of balance come to this delicate situation that still allows decent people to contribute to and become a part of this country's future.

Something else I'd like to add is that today's America isn't (shouldn't be) under construction as it was back in the day. If anything we need to deconstruct a bit and get things back to simpler ways. Personally, I'd grant anyone instant citizenship if they were to knock down a few blocks of abandoned buildings and plant trees and grass (the legal kind ) in their place.

I think it's obvious to all that reform needs to happen, as long as the results are fair to everyone who's part of the equation.

[Canadian Mind]

My feelings on the whole issue are complex, but in relation to Canadian immigrants, I believe in integration... not the melting pot theory.

Nothing put a bigger smile on my face that to see a first generation immigrant from India wearing the Team Canada Jersey through central park 2 weeks after we won the game.

Nothing pissed me off more than on monday seeing a woman in a burka in a bank. If I am legally not allowed to participate in any form of commerce without showing my face, then neither should she.

Some parts of an immigrants culture and religion can be integrated, others can't. If the immigrant is not willing to sacrifice that which can not be integrated into their new country, then they can go back to their old country.


Again, my feelings get a lot more complex, with specific feelings for specific scenarios, but I hope that paints a broad enough brush for folks to understand where I am coming from.

[shinkai]

Damn good point about the burka, CM. Allowing that is like inviting someone to dinner who feels the need to hand you the recipes for what they think you should cook.

[Canadian Mind]

Thanks. I was actually expecting to be stonewalled over that.

it's not that I have a problem with a woman wearing a burka. My problem is with their faces being hidden where they need to show it for purposes of identification, trust, etc. Yes if they choose not to take the burka off they will lead a life of isolation and lack of interaction. But it wouldn't be us limiting their freedom, it would be them choosing to relinquish that freedom in exchange for having their established religious practices and our established rules and customs of society (which they elected to become a part of when they moved here) work together.

Sucks but, their choice.



PS. Sorry about the run-on sentence at the end of the paragraph.

This post has been edited by Canadian Mind: 25 March 2010 - 07:43 AM

[sevnson_71]

Not going to get an argument from me on that either CM or Shinkai. Also TR you will notice that the immigrants coming from tribal areas(see the Middle East) are not trying to duck the system, but are embracing it wholly by learning our language and customs and at least in the context of their public life adopting them. No issues with that. There is a 150 year old dry goods store a few towns over that is owned and operated by Pakistani immigrants as of a few years ago. Very nice people, and when they are working there they speak in English both to the customers and one another so as not to alienate the locals. You see that a lot up here now. But the last time I went to Burger King in the mall (this was a few years ago, I refuse to eat there since that)the store manager who was Hispanic sat there conversing in Spanish to people who were at the counter and were not buying a thing while the Caucasian kid who was clearly struggling with her work needed help. I hopped out of line to his register and he totally ignored me even though he saw me do it. So I went next door to the NY style pizza place(run by Puerto Ricans from NY) chatted with the guys who run it because I know them from my mall rat days, and even they said the guy was an ass, got my food and left. That there is a decent example of the contrast.(and BTW I sent about five customers from his line over to the pizza place just to rub his nose in it I know the regional guy for BK from when I worked in that store so if he sees sales dropping he would ask questions).

[ensign edwards]

Quote

Well it is less that I think than in the past people were willing to cede to the "when in Rome" rule when they came here, learning the language and how our government works. With some ethnicities that enter now they aren't willing to. They see coming to the US as more of a mercenary act where they come from their homeland make US Dollars send what they don't use back then go home instead of coming here to make a life for themselves. I can say I have met people who do this. But in the eyes of many people who are citizens either by birth or immigrants this takes jobs away from people who are trying to make a life for themselves in the here and now, especially in a market where there are fewer jobs than workers seeking to fill them. It is like someone buying up houses and flipping them for a profit, but in doing so artificially inflating the local market by reducing the available homes. Weird analogy I know but it is the best comparison I can draw at the moment. But in my eyes it has just as much to do with employers willing to hire an illegal at a cut-rate and not document them on the payroll. They could just as easily say no papers no job but greed overrides that.

Those are reasonable and well-put arguments. Not saying I necessarily agree with everyone you've said, but they're fair arguments to make. My point was that the letter Shlomi posted seemed to focus on silly non-issues like whether or not someone will change their name when they come to the US.

[sevnson_71]

ensign edwards, on 27 March 2010 - 09:47 AM, said:

Those are reasonable and well-put arguments. Not saying I necessarily agree with everyone you've said, but they're fair arguments to make. My point was that the letter Shlomi posted seemed to focus on silly non-issues like whether or not someone will change their name when they come to the US.

Well simple answer there is most of the time when names got changed in the Great Migration of the 1800's it had more to do with the clerk not knowing how to pronounce let alone spell the person's name and where the person coming in often times was functionally illiterate anyhow and didn't want to get shipped back to Europe during a famine they did what any sane person would do and said, "okay, close enough" and made their mark on the dotted line.

[trekkin']

*dips toe in the water*

I usually stay way the hell away from these politics threads anymore.

Well, my Mother, brother and sister were all Naturalized citizens...I'm the only "Yankee" kid in my family. Of course they came from Canada...a perfectly acceptable place of origin in the US. I cannot imagine how different my life would have been if my mother was from a Latin country. Maybe very much the same since we are Navy brats and one must comply to Navy/American standards or get booted out.

This being said, I worked with many Dominicans and Puerto Ricans, a Bolivian kid, Hondurans...They were legal citizens, but to say that they were granted the same treatment as whities would be wrong. Some of the insanity that my Honduran friend experienced because even after 30 yrs in this country, and working in the public, she still has a rather strong accent. Just as an example, she had a pair of glasses made...and the guy kept screwing up the prescription...He told her that she was having problems with the glasses because of the shape of her head...specifically that her face was lopsided. (I nearly died of hysterics when she told me that) Another time, she was paying off a bed set that she bought at Sleepys. She paid the same lady her payment at the store, kept the receipts (thank God) and was ready to pay it off before the year ran out and she would have to pay the interest...She went in...to pay it off and the woman had posted the payments to another account. After a few weeks of trying to straighten it out...They hit her with the interest because she hadn't payed off the bill within a year. Now...that Sleepys would probably have been burned down if that happened to me, but that is the kind of thing that happens to people in this country.

But in general, these folks worked harder than my college educated whitie employees. I could always count on them to be honest. Sure they sent money home to their parents...and families. (My own mother sent money home to my grandmother.) But they worked 60 hours a week to make enough to spare. One guy opened the warehouse from Monday to Saturday 6am - 6pm. What is that? 12X 6= 72 hours a week!!! Why was he allowed to work so much? Reliability. Hard work.

As far as border hoppers...yeah, well...I'm not sure exactly who it is that are trying to get jobs as house keepers and vegetable pickers and low wage...DANGEROUS work laborers. I'd like some proof of that. There have been ways suggested to get these folks working papers...Even GWB saw that...But it is a much better "Talking Point" than a real issue in America.

I'm going to stand up for my immigrant friends. They work hard, go to church, send their kids to good schools that they pay for...and made my life much more fun.

[sevnson_71]

Oh I'm not saying Hispanics fit the stereotype thrown at them all the time. I knew/was well acquainted with several of them while working at the mall. Like any group, there were good and bad ones. The good ones(which I see as an example of the majority of them) were really nice people who would give you the shirt off their back. They also work really hard, and unlike several of their Yankee counterparts (who used to be synonymous with hard-working) and didn't complain about it or make a fuss when they had to do something difficult or disgusting like hauling heavy packages up stairs or clean a nasty restroom stall. They just sucked it up and did it. Also unlike many of us "spoiled Americans" they actually save their money instead of borrowing to get a big ticket item. I will say that they did speak Spanish out of convenience to one another when working, but they could also speak a reasonable amount of English as well. These are people that should be held up as proper examples of first gen Americans, not the ones you see on "Cops".

[ensign edwards]

Quote

Well simple answer there is most of the time when names got changed in the Great Migration of the 1800's it had more to do with the clerk not knowing how to pronounce let alone spell the person's name and where the person coming in often times was functionally illiterate anyhow and didn't want to get shipped back to Europe during a famine they did what any sane person would do and said, "okay, close enough" and made their mark on the dotted line.

Exactly, so it shouldn't matter if people nowadays want to keep their original names.

[sevnson_71]

ensign edwards, on 01 April 2010 - 11:15 AM, said:

Exactly, so it shouldn't matter if people nowadays want to keep their original names.

Oh indeed. Anyone who changes their name now when coming here does so for anonymity.

[tish]

Dippin' toes as well, trekkin'....as a member of a multi-cultural family, I am a proponent of ethical behavior from everyone.....those coming to a new country, those native to it, the makers, judgers, and enforcers of the laws, the citizens who place the aforementioned in that position of power and decision-making, and the media who reports on the topic.

I don't ask for much, do I?

On a personal note.....I have always been stopped by border patrol checkpoints, as has every vehicle ahead of and behind me, on my various excursions around the border. So imagine my surprise when I hear of anyone decrying a "profiling" mentality in our border control personnel. I have always been very politely treated in such situations....similar to when I am boarding any airflight in the USA. The only time I have ever been treated poorly ( not in a serious way, just extremely rude ) occured when I was traveling in another country. Sigh... I was very happy to be heading home at the time.

[Shlomi of Vulcan]

The other day I needed to go to the emergency room.

Not wanting to sit there for 4 hours, I put on my old fatigues and stuck an official looking name tag onto the front of my shirt.

When I went into the E.R., I noticed that 3/4 of the people got up and left. I guess they decided that they weren't that sick after all. Cut at least 3 hours off my waiting time.

Here's the name used on the tag. Feel free to use it the next time you're in need of quicker emergency service.

U.S. Border Patrol

It also works at DMV; it saved me 5 hours.

And the Laundromat.... three minutes after entering, I had my choice of any machine, most still running.

Don't try it at McDonald's; the whole crew got up and left and l never got my order.

[Shlomi of Vulcan]

Charlie Daniels and I are cut from the same cloth as it relates to immigration into the United States.

I don't know how everybody else feels about it, but to me I think Hispanic people in this country, legally or illegally, made a huge public relations mistake with their recent demonstrations.

I don't blame anybody in the world for wanting to come to the United States of America, as it is a truly wonderful place.

But when the first thing you do when you set foot on American soil is illegal it is flat out wrong and I don't care how many lala land left heads come out of the woodwork and start trying to give me sensitivity lessons.

I don't need sensitivity lessons, in fact I don't have anything against Mexicans! I just have something against criminals and anybody who comes into this country illegally is a criminal and if you don't believe it try coming into America from a foreign country without a passport and see how far you get. What disturbs me about the demonstrations is that it's tantamount to saying, "I am going to come into your country even if it means breaking your laws and there's nothing you can do about it."

It's an "in your face" action and speaking just for me, I don't like it one little bit and if there were a half dozen pairs of gonads in Washington bigger than English peas it wouldn't be happening.

Where are you, you bunch of lily-livered, pantywaist, forked tongued, sorry excuses for defenders of The Constitution? Have you been drinking the water out of the Potomac again? And even if you pass a bill on immigration it will probably be so pork laden and watered down that it won't mean anything anyway Besides, what good is another law going to do when you won't enforce the ones on the books now?

And what ever happened to the polls, guys? I thought you folks were the quintessential finger wetters. Well, you sure ain't paying any attention to the polls this time because somewhere around eighty percent of Americans want some thing done about this mess, and mess it is and getting bigger everyday.

This is no longer a problem, it is a dilemma and headed for being a tragedy. Do you honestly think that what happened in France with the Muslims can't happen here when the businesses who hire these people finally run out of jobs and a few million disillusioned Hispanics take to the streets?

If you, Mr. President, Congressmen and Senators, knuckle under on this and refuse to do something meaningful it means that you care nothing for the kind of country your children and grandchildren will inherit. But I guess that doesn't matter as long as you get re-elected. Shame on you. One of the big problems in America today is that if you have the nerve to say anything derogatory about any group of people (except Christians) you are going to be screamed at by the media and called a racist, a bigot and anything else they can think of to call you

Well I've been pounded by the media before and I'm still rockin' and rollin' and when it comes to speaking the truth I fear not. And the truth is that the gutless, gonadless, milksop politicians are just about to sell out the United States of America because they don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to face reality.

And reality is that we would never allow any other group of people to have 12 million illegal in this country and turn around and say, "Oh it's ok, ya'll can stay here if you'll just allow us to slap your wrist."

And I know that some of you who read this column are saying "Well, what's wrong with that?" I'll tell you what's wrong with it. These people could be from Mars as far as we know. We don't know who they are, where they are or what they're up to and the way the Congress is going we're not going to.

Does this make sense? Labor force you say? We already subsidize corporate agriculture as it is, must we subsidize their labor as well? If these people were from Haiti would we be so fast to turn a blind eye to them or if they were from Somalia or Afghanistan? I think not.

All the media shows us are pictures of hard working Hispanics who have crossed the border just to try to better their life. They don't show you pictures of the Feds rounding up members of MS 13, the violent gang who came across the same way the decent folks did. They don't tell you about the living conditions of the Mexican illegal some fat cat hired to pick his crop.

I want to make two predictions.

No. 1: This situation is going to grow and fester until it erupts in violence on our streets while the wimps in Washington drag their toes in the dirt and try to figure how many tons of political hay they can make to the acre.

No 2: Somebody is going to cross that border with some kind of weapon of mass destruction and set it off in a major American city after which there will be a backlash such as this country has never experienced and the Capitol building in Washington will probably tilt as Congressmen and Senators rush to the other side of the issue.


I don't know about you but I would love to see just one major politician stand up and say, "I don't care who I make mad and I don't care how many votes I lose, this is a desperate situation and I'm going to lead the fight to get it straightened out." I don't blame anybody for wanting to come to America , but if you don't respect our immigration laws why should you respect any others? And by the way, this is America and our flag has stars and stripes Please get that other one out of my face.

God Bless America

Charlie Daniels

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

Hmmmm, while I might agree with some of the sentiment in that missive, I'm not sure that his colourful rhetoric (typical of the Ranting Right) doesn't rather undercut his message.