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#1 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 11:54 AM

(Addressing this all directly to Apoca, since I doubt anyone else will ever read this.)

All right, I once again feel the need to discuss WoW with someone who will actually know what I'm talking about, and I figured this was better than derailing Ten Forward again.

The main news is that my mage has reached level 80. Quick thoughts on life as a demigod: random heroic dungeons are frighteningly addictive, Icecrown is satisfactorily bad ass, Culling of Stratholme is disappointing but still okay, and the Argent Tournament is lame.

I have begun doing Northrend raids (well, I did one). I'm not overly enamored with raids (I see why you don't like them), but I intend to press on. To put it simply, I'm not going to buy a game called Wrath of the Lich King and not fight the Lich King.

I find myself having a crisis of loyalty lately. I think part of me is starting to like the Alliance more than the Horde. Now, to understand what has led me to this, you need two pieces of context. One is that, when I was little, I was a hard core Alliance fan. I've always been a sucker for knights in shining armor. Come Warcraft III, the Alliance had become a little dull, and the Orcs were no longer evil, so I jumped ship. But this isn't so much a new feeling as it is a reawakening of old feelings. The second is the quests in Icecrown, which (IMO) show that the Horde has become cowardly and dishonorable in addition to brutal and ruthless. Specifically, there was a quest that had me murdering defenseless Alliance wounded after a Horde army had snuck up behind and massacred them.

Come on, now. That's not even honorable combat. That goes against everything true and decent Horde warriors stand for. That's simply craven and cowardly.

One final piece tipping the scales in the Alliance's favor is King Varian Wrynn. I think he's probably the most awesome character they've come up with in a long time. I like to think of him as the Alliance version of Orgrim Doomhammer: to one side, he's a hero; to the other, he's a monster. And they're both right.

Of course, the Horde still has all the cool races, and all but one of my characters are Horde, so it's not quite so simple as all that.

So, anyway, those are my random WoW thoughts for the day.

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#2 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 12:31 PM

Had to head over to Wowwiki to remind myself of the quests, and read them for both sides, and may I say, this was one of the many badass Icecrown moments.
I have to say "massacre" is the wrong word to use. This was an Alliance operation, done in secret, that would have given them the upper hand in Icecrown. The assault on Northrend was supposed to be a joint operation by both the Alliance and the Horde, and if you can't appreciate the fact that this was a sneaky, underhanded move by the Alliance, then at least appreciate it as a plot point designed to showcase the culmination of the Horde/Alliance conflict in Northrend. The whole point is that everyone is supposed to be working together, but they can't, because they're too different. And it plays right into the Lich King's hands.

Now, as for the fight, as Korm Blackscar said:
"They saw the Alliance assaulting the gate and they attacked them from behind... <After a brief pause, Korm bursts into laughter.>

THAT is what it means to be HORDE!"

They smelled blood and battle, and they gave their lives for the Horde's benefit (or, at least, what they thought was the Horde's benefit). I'm not saying I would have done the same, but I will say I'm not going to condemn them for it. The Alliance practically deserved it for going behind the Horde's back.

And as far as the killing of wounded soldiers go, I'm not going to argue about vengeance again, like in the moral debatin's thread. :P As far as I'm concerned, the Alliance betrayed us, and good Horde warriors lost their lives because of it. And at least I'm proud that they gave as good, actually better, than they got, and if one of them lays there, dying, and asks me to go kill a few already as good as dead Alliance, I'm not going to think twice.

I don't suppose I'm the most objective person to be arguing with on matters of Horde vs. Alliance, though. I rather like the new direction the Horde is taking. The speech Korm gave when he gives you the quest to kill the Alliance... that was just amazing.

Edited by Apocalypse, 12 March 2010 - 12:32 PM.

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#3 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 01:52 PM

I fail to see how that was sneaky on the Alliance's part. Granted, I haven't done the quest from the Alliance perspective (my rogue isn't at that level yet), but they were fighting the Scourge. That doesn't give them a leg up on the Horde. That gives them a leg up on the Scourge, which is supposed to their mutual enemy.

Also, maybe I missed something, but I don't see any sign that there was ever any intention of the Horde and the Alliance working together in Icecrown. Seems to me that they've been whaling the tar out of each since Angrathar. And even before, really.

And I'm sorry, but murdering the defenseless only fits the Horde that existed when the Burning Legion were their masters. Even if the Alliance did deserve vengeance (and I freely grant that that may have; I'm a Blood Elf fan, remember; the betrayal of Garithos is always strong in my mind), true warriors would do it face to face, against opponents who could defend themselves. Slipping knives into those would die anyway is worthy of the Forsaken, or even some of the more vicious Blood Elves, but no self-respecting Orc should do it.

You see, the problem isn't so much that what they're doing goes against what I feel is right, though it does. It goes against their own code of conduct. That's what's truly reprehensible about it.

I do agree that it makes for interesting story-telling, though. Don't mistake my criticism of the Horde for criticism of the story. This is all very interesting and well told; it's just making me question my loyalties is all.

#4 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 08:46 PM

So, have you uh... heard about what happens in the Icecrown Citadel raid?
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#5 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 09:01 PM

Funny you should mention it, I (after much careful thought) recently decided not to try to kill Arthas. This is relevant because I got some spoilers whilst reading up on the tactics for fighting the Lich King (which is why I decided not to fight him; they scared me so bad I ran all the way back to Eversong).

Spoiler


There's a cinematic after the Lich King's defeat. I haven't seen it yet, but in an excellent decision, Blizzard has given lore fans the option of viewing it by clicking a plaque in Dalaran, allowing them to skip the fight altogether. I intend to watch it soon.

I also get the feeling there may be some interesting revelations in the Frozen Halls (the five man wings of Icecrown Citadel), but I haven't done the last wing, Halls of Reflection, yet. The Frozen Halls are a good argument for your getting back to the game prior to Cataclysm, as at least one wing is made of awesome (and I expect HoR to be the same), and once Cataclysm is released, it'll be virtually impossible to find a group for them (downside to the new dungeon system).


By the way, since this thread's been resurrected, I've been meaning to ask: have you read any of the comics? I'm curious, since you're a comic fan.

Damn, why am I always so long-winded when it comes to WoW?

#6 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 09:12 PM

Haven't read the comics.

But I was reading up on the Lich King fight, just to know what happens. I'm not going to tell you to watch the cinematic, because I don't even know how to feel about it quite yet.
And I hadn't heard about the aerial battle but that sounds just plain epic. I always loved those airships, and they clearly need to work in a reason for Orgrim's Hammer to fire the giant wolf gun. :P

It would be awesome to see those ships in future zones, kind of like Hemet Nesingwary, just showing up randomly. They seem to be quite powerful military machines.
You know, that is, if they don't tear each other apart. No, wait, I want them to tear each other apart. I want it to be like an instance or something, and you can fight aboard it as it crashes. :P
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#7 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 11:10 AM

Haven't read the comics.


You might want to give them a try. They're fairly good. I have a few complaints about them, but they're all complaints I tend to have about all comics, so as a comic fan, they might not bother you at all. They tend to be a little Alliance-centric, but they're still interesting stories, so unless your Alliance hate is ludicrously intense, you should still be able to appreciate them.

In addition to the regular series, they did a four part mini-series called Ashbringer (which you can now purchase as a single volume). It, too, was pretty good. A little dull at the outset, but the last two issues were top notch.

It would be awesome to see those ships in future zones, kind of like Hemet Nesingwary, just showing up randomly. They seem to be quite powerful military machines.


That'd be cool. One bad habit they've gotten into is abandoning cool stuff they introduce in one game when the next one comes out (I wanted to see, say, Voren'thal or the Naaru worked into WotLK). They've introduced so many awesome things in WotLK; I don't want to see them all forgotten about when Cataclysm comes out. I want to see Tirion Fordring leading the charge against the Black Dragonflight.

You know, that is, if they don't tear each other apart. No, wait, I want them to tear each other apart. I want it to be like an instance or something, and you can fight aboard it as it crashes. public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif


Sounds like that's more or less how it is in ICC.

#8 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 12:22 PM

Okay, sorry for the double post, but I did Halls of Reflection yesterday, and I feel the need to gush to someone else who appreciates Warcraft like I do.

I hereby declare HoR to be the most nerdgasmically awesome dungeon since Escape from Durnholde. The entire place was just an avalanche of awesomeness and bad assery. I had very high expectations, and I'm pleased to say that it met or exceeded all of them (which is especially good when you consider that WoW has generally failed to meet my expectations). It even gave some pretty interesting plot revelations, though they may already be known to you if you saw the end cinematic (I still haven't watched said cinematic, so I can't say how it deals with the new developments).

Basically, HoR was everything you could have wanted it to be. It's a great way for us lore fans to enjoy much of the climactic feeling of a raid without going through all the trouble and frustration normally associated with a raid.

Even putting aside all the great epic-type stuff, I'd love it just for the little details thrown in for us nerds. For example, all the trash mobs are ghosts of the units that were in Arthas's expedition in Warcraft III.

Anyway, that's my raving for now. I highly recommend you find some way to do this dungeon.

#9 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 06:00 PM

Escape from Durnholde was really awesome. I still hum that haunting Caverns of Time tune every now and then.
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#10 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 08:17 PM

Escape from Durnholde is still probably my favourite dungeon. I could a write a book on all the different ways it was awesome. Opening of the Dark Portal was nearly as good, though I think HoR has usurped its position as second favourite. Sadly, Culling of Straholme did not quite live up to the Caverns of Time's legacy, but it has grown on me since my first run. It has its moments.

#11 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:24 AM

Figured this belonged here, especially if it starts a longer conversation.

Not as much as I would like, though. My character's ass is still sore from all those Arathi Basin matches.

In my battlegroup, for the most part, it was 50/50 for most battlegrounds. Except the Horde never suffered from horrifically crushing defeats. Can't tell you how many times we capped all four towers and just killed Alliance as they spawned in their rock. The best part would be when the casters slung spells down at us, and I shadowstepped up there and tore into 'em. :P

We used to get our asses handed to us in Alterac Valley a lot, but less so when I realized the difference one skilled player can make. For instance, stealthing around and ninja-ing the graveyard flags.

And funnily enough, Eye of the Storm and Arathi Basin were where we consistently used to pull off wins. And as long as I'm getting into this kind of talk, I remember this one time in Arathi Basin where the whole game was neck and neck, and it was the hardest fight I've ever participated in. The Alliance was ahead of us, and then we captured three flags and we came from behind to win it just barely. I'm talking, like, a second's difference between the two scores.

PvPing... easily the best part of the game.

Edited by Apocalypse, 20 April 2010 - 11:26 AM.

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#12 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:41 AM

I find it depends on the battleground. I used to feel the Alliance had the edge, but since I've gotten into Outland and Northrend BGs, I find it's more even.

In my experience, it usually breaks down like this:

Warsong Gulch: Completely owned by the Horde. The Alliance never figured out that you have to cap flags to win.
Arathi Basin: Horde doesn't have a prayer. Alliance dominates.
Alterac Valley: Almost entirely even split. Depends on the day.
Eye of the Storm: Words cannot describe how much the Alliance sucks at this. I think they've stopped trying.
Strand of the Ancients (my favourite BG, BTW): Horde usually wins, but doesn't dominate quite as much as in WSG or EotS.
Wintergrasp: Horde has no hope at all.

I haven't done Isle of Conquest, so I can't comment on it. I think it comes down to what kind of mindset each BG rewards. As a general rule (and this is a major generalization), I find the Horde tends to rush in, dominating offensively but neglecting defense, whereas the Alliance mostly just turtles. The BGs that reward offensive gameplay (like WSG) are dominated by the Horde, and the ones that require a more cautious mindset (Arathi Basin) end up being claimed by the Alliance.

PvPing... easily the best part of the game.


I prefer PvE, but PvP does have its moments. It's too frustrating, but on the rare occasions when both I and my group do well, it can be very thrilling. (I will freely admit that I'm not the most skilled PvPer out there; by no means do I suck, but I'm not the best.) That said, there can be some truly thrilling moments in PvP. Like the example you gave. Or this Strand of the Ancients battle I did the other day. We started on defense and lost pretty much the entire map in the first minute, and I thought for sure we would lose, but then we staged some epic, 300-esque final defense at the Relic Chamber, and we ended up holding out for a very long time. It won us the match. Or this time on my rogue when I single-handedly (okay, virtually single-handedly) won a Warsong Gulch match. That was awesome.

#13 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 12:06 AM

I haven't done Isle of Conquest, so I can't comment on it. I think it comes down to what kind of mindset each BG rewards. As a general rule (and this is a major generalization), I find the Horde tends to rush in, dominating offensively but neglecting defense, whereas the Alliance mostly just turtles. The BGs that reward offensive gameplay (like WSG) are dominated by the Horde, and the ones that require a more cautious mindset (Arathi Basin) end up being claimed by the Alliance.

This sounds like an accurate enough assessment, though some of the BG outcomes you described are somewhat varied in my (former) battlegroup.

I prefer PvE, but PvP does have its moments. It's too frustrating, but on the rare occasions when both I and my group do well, it can be very thrilling. (I will freely admit that I'm not the most skilled PvPer out there; by no means do I suck, but I'm not the best.)

I played PvP all the time... I pulled off some really awesome stuff with my rogue. There was this one time in Arathi Basin where me and some other guy were capturing the flag, and two alliance ran towards us. So, I run past the first guy, target him real quick, and then blind him, and then I attack the second guy so he can't stop my friend. We capped the flag, and after the fight, the other Horde guy whispered to me that I blinded the guy right before he attacked him. :P
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#14 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 12:14 PM

I played PvP all the time... I pulled off some really awesome stuff with my rogue. There was this one time in Arathi Basin where me and some other guy were capturing the flag, and two alliance ran towards us. So, I run past the first guy, target him real quick, and then blind him, and then I attack the second guy so he can't stop my friend. We capped the flag, and after the fight, the other Horde guy whispered to me that I blinded the guy right before he attacked him. public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif


Being a rogue in PvP can be pretty awesome, especially if you're in the top end of your level bracket. Your story reminds me of a time I single-handedly took on three Horde players at once, killed them, and then capped the Lumber Mill. Granted, they were all a few levels lower than me, but it's still not an easy feat. It's also very fun if you can get a healer working on keeping you alive. That's what I like to call "god of death" time.

I used to PvP more than I do now. I actually saved up my marks of honor and got a PvP mount. Lately, I've been distracted by leveling, heroics, and raiding.


On a somewhat different topic, I finally got around to viewing the Lich King defeat cinematic. After digesting a bit, I've decided it was very good.

Though I doubt anyone but you and me will ever see this thread, I'll put the rest in spoiler code.

Spoiler


#15 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 04:00 PM

I don't even know, though. I mean...
Spoiler

I don't know how to deal with that.
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#16 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:39 PM

Hey, we all knew it was gonna happen.

#17 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 07:02 AM

Maybe. But I are sad.
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#18 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 12:13 PM

At least they gave him a good send-off. Pretty much every major WotLK quest chain seemed to end with some utterly bad ass Lich King moment, and you can fight him even without doing the raid (however briefly), thanks to Halls of Reflection.

#19 Apocalypse

 

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 12:15 PM

True. But he was the best thing the humans ever produced, and he was a great character. At least he rests in peace.
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#20 ensign edwards

 

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 12:25 PM

True. But he was the best thing the humans ever produced, and he was a great character.


He's actually, like, the first major character boss whose death I don't regret (okay, that's a rather large exaggeration, but you get the idea). I'm still upset about Illidan, Kael'thas, and Malygos. They all had such great potential. This seems like the inevitable end of Arthas's tale.

Also, not to criticize Arthas, but I'm pretty sure the humans have come up with cooler stuff than him.



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