[dirtpeach]

Apocalypse, on 22 December 2009 - 05:39 AM, said:

Sure, in both instances he had a little outside help, but who says winning wars must be accomplished without luck?
...That and he was given charge of the Defiant, arguably the most powerful ship that Starfleet had at its disposal, and used her well.

A little outside help I think is an understatement. In retaking DS9, Dukat had Sisko right where he wanted him. If it weren't for the unexpected arrival of the Klingons, the Starfleet armada would've been obliterated.

And to stop the Dominion fleet from coming through the wormhole, he begged. Ugh.

Being given the Defiant is not much of an accomplishment. Of course Starfleet gave the most powerful ship to the position that needed it the most--DS9--and not the captain that was most capable.

If there's anything Sisko is responsible for, it's getting the first Defiant destroyed and Jadzia killed.

[Apocalypse]

dirtpeach, on 29 December 2009 - 03:38 AM, said:

If there's anything Sisko is responsible for, it's getting the first Defiant destroyed and Jadzia killed.

Sisko is not responsible for a Breen superweapon and their unexpected alliance with the Dominion, or the actions of an evil and powerful entity.

And as for Dukat having Sisko where he wanted him, of course he did. The odds were, as they usually were for Sisko, stacked monumentally against him. Regarding the events in the Wormhole, he was prepared to sacrifice his ship and crew for the Federation, and when he saw a chance to save the Defiant and the good men and women who crewed it, he took that opportunity, as any Captain would. Picard or Kirk or Janeway would have been on their knees pleading with tears in their eyes if they thought it would save their crew and the Federation.

[dirtpeach]

Thanks I forgot the Defiant was destroyed because of the Breen. I thought it happened on the same episode Jadzia was killed.

Anyway what I'm looking for are instances where Sisko showed brilliance and/or greatness.

Like when Kirk beat the Kobayashi Maru by cheating. Or when he destroyed the Enterprise to kill the Klingon boarding party and transport his own crew to the Klingon ship in Search for Spock.

Like when Picard took back the Enterprise single handedly in Starship Mine and again as a child in Rascals. Or when he came up with the Picard Maneuver.

Like when Riker outsmarted the Borg in Best of Both Worlds or when he came up with the Riker Maneuver in Insurrection.

Sorry for the sentence fragments.

[JoannaPoe]

Sisko's role was very different from most of the captains in other series; being in charge of the station, he had to be more of an administrator and diplomat. I think it's more of a realistic role than was available in the other series: if you talk to a contemporary naval captain, their time is mostly spent with paperwork and discipline, more planning than action. Sisko isn't my favorite captain, but I've got to say, DS9 is my favorite Trek series. Being tied to the one spot most of the time, I think they did a much better job with character development and story than any of the other series.

[Baconnaise]

I think the original poster is being unrealistic. It just seems like you're grasping at straws here to nit pick on Sisko and DS9 in general. Why?

What has Picard done that shows he's such a great captain? The crew does all the work! You're comparing captains and they all delegate tasks that's pretty much it besides being a morale focal point. I won't bring up Enterprise or Voyager as those shows are beneath my attention (horrible third rate shows I wouldn't wish on anyone).

I like Stewart but his dry impersonation of Horatio Nelson or Picard is outdated by even our standards. Victorian era is in the past and rightly so.

[Chief Cottingham]

I do believe Sisko is one of the most unimpressive Trek Captains. He's not nearly as cunning as Picard or Janeway. And he is not as tough as Kirk or Archer.

[Apocalypse]

I honestly think Sisko was one of the best Captains. He was placed in a horrible situation, which got slightly better and then plummeted so far south that they had to abandon DS9. Given all the events of DS9... Picard certainly never had that kind of situation on his plate (and I'm talking about real Picard, not movie action hero Picard).

Sisko is without a doubt the best wartime Captain. He's the best tactician of all five (and had the best combat ship of all five) and if you watch the series, you can see the little things that make him great. I'm reminded of the morale boosting tradition of the Defiant, where they lined the drained phase whatchacallems up along the mess and said "this is a symbol that we won't stop fighting."

[Chief Cottingham]

I will agree with you there. Sisko was the best wartime captain and he did have the best combat ship.

[Chief Engineer Scott]

The thing with DS9 that people who criticize Sisko have to remember is that it was on a station not a starship, so character development had to be different to fit the situation.

With that said, I think Sisko did great on DS9. He was tough and gruff when he needed to be and he was caring and compassionate when he needed to be as well. He was in a situation where he couldn't (as TV Tropes puts it) just "warp away from the problem of the week."

One of my favorite lines form the series is when Sisko and Kira walk into Security and Odo is talking to Quark about selling weapons and how he has to be let go because Bajor wants him free

"Better luck next time." Quark
"You'd better hope there isn't a next time mister. I've cut you a lot of slack in the past. I've even looked away once or twice when I could have come down hard at you, but those days are over! Now we may not be able to get you for running weapons but if you so much as litter on the Promenade I will nail you to the wall!" Sisko

This post has been edited by Chief Engineer Scott: 16 August 2010 - 04:23 PM

[TLOVeritas]

Compared to Kirk/Picard/Janeway Sisko isn't the most accomplished, but he is the most interesting. In my opinion, what he had to deal with was even more challenging than what Voyager and the original Enterprise faced; he made a lot of hard decisions and did a lot of things good and bad that made him a much realer character, less a paragon of virtue and more a relatable man. Sisko was the most emotional, the most unprofessional and the most human of the captains in the TV series, and he's probably my favorite for it.

[Apocalypse]

TLOVeritas, on 18 August 2010 - 01:35 PM, said:

Sisko was the most emotional, the most unprofessional and the most human of the captains in the TV series, and he's probably my favorite for it.

I'd argue that Sisko was the most professional. Yes, he was emotional (well all the Captains have emotions, and pretty much all of them except Picard even showed them as much as Sisko did) but he was always the guy who was calm and collected. He had his finger on the pulse on the station almost immediately and he had a calm authority at all times.

[dirtpeach]

It's been a while since I posted. I've finally gotten to season 3 of ENT. I'm becoming more and more impressed with Archer. Seeing Chosen Realm and Strategem puts him on the impressive list in my book. It's great seeing how much one ship can do. Most of Sisko's victories involved not just one ship but an entire fleet.

Quote

What has Picard done that shows he's such a great captain? The crew does all the work!

I can think of a couple of episodes where he saved the day with little help from anyone. Can't seem to think of any for Sisko. I'm not nitpicking on DS9 or Sisko in general. In terms of storytelling, I think DS9 trumps any other Trek. I'm just nitpicking on Sisko's lack of guile.

Quote

Picard certainly never had that kind of situation on his plate

I agree Sisko was in a far worse situation. Aside from his inspiring speeches, did he use actual brilliance to save the day. Janeway was in the worst situation in the whole of Trek. She just had one ship and she took on a helluva lot more. See Scorpion. See Endgame. Sure she cheated the same way Kirk cheated with the Kobayashi Maru.

Quote

Sisko was the best wartime captain

That's not saying much. Out of the 5 Treks, only DS9 featured a war.

[Greystone]

Sisko inspires by his very presence, his strength of character and determination. These are all qualities I would hope to find in a leader. I love the scene in The Ship, I think, where Sisko is lamenting the passing of several crewmen, a far cry from the red shirted canon fodder of TOS. No, Sisko is far from unimpressive... as a man and a captain.

I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. How little people see, Sisko should be judged by the loyalty he inspires in others. Nobody should be judged by failing to deliver in the face of insurmountable odds, that's for Roddenberry influenced fairy tales I always found DS9 a touch more gritty and realistic.

This post has been edited by Greystone: 04 November 2011 - 01:32 PM

[Greystone]

Chief Cottingham, on 20 July 2010 - 10:04 AM, said:

I do believe Sisko is one of the most unimpressive Trek Captains. He's not nearly as cunning as Picard or Janeway. And he is not as tough as Kirk or Archer.

What? Have you seen Sisko fight?

[Greystone]

dirtpeach, on 29 December 2009 - 03:38 AM, said:

A little outside help I think is an understatement. In retaking DS9, Dukat had Sisko right where he wanted him. If it weren't for the unexpected arrival of the Klingons, the Starfleet armada would've been obliterated.

And to stop the Dominion fleet from coming through the wormhole, he begged. Ugh.

Being given the Defiant is not much of an accomplishment. Of course Starfleet gave the most powerful ship to the position that needed it the most--DS9--and not the captain that was most capable.

If there's anything Sisko is responsible for, it's getting the first Defiant destroyed and Jadzia killed.

Your arguement makes little sense to me. Was Sisko supposed to retake DS9 singlehanded? Was he supposed to conquer the Dominion singlehanded? As in all successful actions they are team orientated. I really don't see the point you are making.

[jonathan]

Technically speaking Sisko wasnt a captain until well after halfway through the series. Personally I thought he did a great job as a commander. As I have read some people thought he wasnt as good as Picard or Kirk. But they were in command of a ship and Sisko was in command of a space station. A very different animal all together. If you think about it he was on a space station which meant he couldnt go to warp to escape when in trouble. He could call for help but it usually meant a long wait since they were so far out in space. I think he did an excellent job considering everything he faced out there in a very dangerous part of space.

[Firdaus]

I never liked how Cap Sisko speaks with the little pause... As a character I guess he is not so credible. Especially with being an Emissary. To be fair how can a Captain be so influential in a War. He is a Captain not an Admiral.

As a leader I find him decisive. He makes quick decisions on his feet. He is an understanding Captain who will provide not by the book solutions. He has helped all the characters in the series by not following the book and providing loopholes.

Cap Sisko really make full use of his resources. As a person he can encourage, motivate and identify talents. He is a Leader, a captain not a super action hero. As a captain he is credible. Why be like Kirk or Picard who fights the universe by themselves? Or Cap Janeway whom I think put priority in the wrong places.

Cap Sisko is not impressive, however he is surrounded by very impressive people, he lets other people shine. Unlike Kirk who hates people to shine brighter then him and needs to be reminded by the Doctor now and then. He bullies Spock, and he has many enemies. Picard is unapproachable and do not know how to protect his own people. He always follow the book and have to go by the book. One example is DATA, he knows DATA is a valued member of his crew but he cannot find a way to not let him be prosecuted and even asked DATA if he can be examined so that he can be used for the FEDERATION. DATA have to defend himself by saying if Geordi have superior eyesight then everyone should wear that visor of his. In this aspect Picard principle is like Dr Bashir.

Worf did not complete his mission and may not put in command position because he was saving his wife.Sisko found Worf as a very good ambassador and gave Worf space to pursue command position. Many times he gave Worf his beloved Defiant to command.

Sisko did not allow any of his crew or subordinates to die, I cannot remember any of Sisko crew dying in his command, not even his enemy. Kirk always kill his crew. Picard also did in many occasion allow his crew to make life sacrifices. Jabeway? wow she can sacrifice her whole ship to save some obscure race who no one will know or remember.

I like Sisko principle of forgiveness. He forgives his enemies. That is the way for not having wars.

[Firdaus]

JoannaPoe, on 31 December 2009 - 01:25 PM, said:

Sisko's role was very different from most of the captains in other series; being in charge of the station, he had to be more of an administrator and diplomat. I think it's more of a realistic role than was available in the other series: if you talk to a contemporary naval captain, their time is mostly spent with paperwork and discipline, more planning than action. Sisko isn't my favorite captain, but I've got to say, DS9 is my favorite Trek series. Being tied to the one spot most of the time, I think they did a much better job with character development and story than any of the other series.

Totally agree with you....

[Firdaus]

Greystone, on 05 November 2011 - 07:17 PM, said:

What? Have you seen Sisko fight?

Sisko whacked Q!!! He wrestled Vulcans, Jem Hadar, Cardasians, Klingon!! Oh yes he took on his arc Nemesis with one arm... how bad ass is that?
Sisko can cook! No other Captain can do that.

[Ezri Dax]

Always thought of Sisko more of the thinker then the type of Captain that wants to get into a fight to prove he was a red blooded male.