[Radardog]

 ChristopherPike, on Aug 2 2009, 02:04 PM, said:

I have to say a 24th/25th Century show with Captain Kim and his first officer Wesley Crusher, saving the day by spouting pages of technobabble and tapping at LCARS... would do nothing for me, and that's not just because I have a serious obsession with ENT. Part of me is convinced Star Trek Online isn't going to be successful either somehow. I don't know I'm just not a fan of computer games, second life or whatever market it's being aimed at. It'll be another bit of mismanagement just like the dying days of UPN and a nail in old Trek's coffin.

You can't label fans, or tar them with the same brush, because I enjoyed TNG, DS9 and yes... VOY too before getting hooked by ENT. But opinions among those accustomed to just the 24th Century era (who came to Trek during the 90's), tend to be vehemently against ENT and still are I gather. So usually the response at online messageboards from those guys is i) we don't ever want ENT back or ii) Star Trek has had its day on TV, let JJ Abrams do what the hell he likes. Even if they relented from that position, it would probably be an Abramsverse show.

So convincing anybody that Enterprise's return is a victory for Prime Universe fans is a hard, no... make that impossible sell.

Perhaps if and when Save Enterprise relocates to its own site, forum etc... we should combine our goal in some way. Or allow space there for you... At the end of the day, its all the Prime Universe. Having said that and I'm not thinking specifically of you here, trek forever.... I have to wonder if a group aiming to bring that timeline back, would be best served by joining forces with a Save Enterprise site. Is a return for Archer and the Enterprise NX-01 a victory for the TNG crowd? I believe that yes it is. Why? Because Season 4 proved you can reference TNG and DS9 with Arik Soong and Section 31, as well as the 23rd Century yet to come.

Trouble is, I'm in very slim company holding this view...

***WARNING***
The following post is an opinion.

I was a big fan of Enterprise... until it started to suck.

Enterprise has grown to be too controversial of a subject among both the fans and the network execs. Fans are heavily divided on its overall worth to the Prime universe, and network execs feel that they did what they could to keep the show alive, despite being the target of attacks by fans.

It won't be coming back.

I would like to see the Prime Universe still in play on television some how. I'm open to past present and future type of stories, but we don't want to go down any of the roads we've already seen before.

[ChristopherPike]

That's your opinion, Radardog and you're welcome to it. I've never forgotten butting heads with you back in 2005/06 and never thought of you as big fan of Enterprise at all.

Maybe it "started to suck" as you describe, sometime around Season 2. I don't know because I must have a closer attachment to this show and always loved it. With some notably exceptions such as Cease Fire and Future Tense, it probably did sag in the middle between Dead Stop and Regeneration, but that was a blip in the grand scale of things. I found most of Season 1 really appealing and from Season 3 onwards through to the fuller prequel flavour in that last season, it just got better and better... until that damp squib of a finale of course.

[Overmind]

Looks like they killed 50 years of Star Trek with this last movie.
I support the original time line, and not the new one.

[sargalab]

I don't want the new universe. I don't need the new time line. Original stuff is ever best stuff.

[trek forever]

Fair enough-oviously, I prefer the original timeline myself but the group certainly would accomadate both those who like th enew timeline and those who don't

[Biter]

Trek which we know is the past. We can do anything but it won't be back. This is Abram's time. His visions and ideas. Time step forward and Trek step forward. We have to have hope, they won't kill what in ST is the best.

[sargalab]

 Biter, on 17 September 2009 - 01:18 PM, said:

Trek which we know is the past. We can do anything but it won't be back. This is Abram's time. His visions and ideas. Time step forward and Trek step forward. We have to have hope, they won't kill what in ST is the best.

They have done.

Star Trek Screenplay page 124:

"KIRK to Engeeniring: Get out of here, Scottie.
SCOTTIE: You bet yer ass, captain..."

"You bet yer ass, captain?" .Hey, this is the flagship of the Starfleet, not Mardi Grass.

It hurts.

[malfi84]

 sargalab, on 18 September 2009 - 12:34 PM, said:

They have done.

Star Trek Screenplay page 124:

"KIRK to Engeeniring: Get out of here, Scottie.
SCOTTIE: You bet yer ass, captain..."

"You bet yer ass, captain?" .Hey, this is the flagship of the Starfleet, not Mardi Grass.

It hurts.

This is very true, and I feel your pain. This being said, I agree with what some of the others have said about the show making it back to the fore. I can mention Star Trek now in company with most of my friends and they have seen the film, know the characters and don't see me as a total freak. I don't think we should see the film as competition for the old series. It can never be that, and it won't ever replace it. I think the best way to look at it is as a homage to the series which will hopefully bring more people back to the origins. And also give us an opportunity to have a whole load more adventures with some of our favourite people, of course.

But yeah, "you bet your ass, captain" was a cheap shot...

[wash8454]

i am a new to this site and this forum but i read a few of your comments and as a trek fan long time had a few thoughts, i really enjoyed the new trek movie and that is saying something as i am as much a shatner fan as much as a trek fan, but i dont see any reason why both time lines in trek dont exist anyway...if you throw away complicated scientific explanations the new time line exists along side the old for the simple reason that if spock could not alter his own history because if things changed then his history would change and his reason for being in gthe past would change meaning that because he changed the past his future doesnt exist so therefore no future no going back and changing history so my belief is that it isnt a seperate time line spock prime messed with but instead an alternate universe that exists alongside the regular timeline and spock prime was or could be inferred as simplly just playing his part in the history of that time line / universe.

[Gavrusha]

I didn't get the chance to see the film when it was in theater, so I couldn't partisapate in all the discusions because I was avoiding spoiler. But now when I finaly saw the film, I want to talk to people about it. I loved it. And yes, the way the time lines set up in the Star Trek universe, its actualy very similar to what is done in Star Gate series. Basicaly, its just another example of the infinate universe theory where "every desision that could be made - IS made". The time lines / universes branch out from one another based on every little desision or action that is made. Very similar to what happened to Worf in one of the episodes in STNG, where he was traveling from univerese to universe, some of them almoust identicle to one another with the only difference being a choice of cake for the birthday party. Please keep in mind that all of the previous Star Trek episodes and movies that had to do with time travel were based around the consept of trying to preserve the time line. What ever distorions happend, the Star Trek heroes would fix it and than go back to their their time that shows no changes. This film is the only one that shows the permenate damage to the time line.

[trek forever]

Both timelines still exist-the original and the new one. No alteration has taken place to the original timeline. The object of the groups is to make sure that we get plenty of new adventures in both timelines...


Best wishes,

Scott

[max88]

I think what Scott is promoting is highly honourable and completely understandable. Many Trekkies/Trekkers would hate to see the past TV series and Movies coming to such an abrupt stop after so many years of enjoyable television. I think that the novels, audio books are a dedicated way to continue the Prime timeline, and as I like to advocate, Non-canon does not mean that they can be disregarded entirely, they are canon in their own separate universe, which is a close approximation of the Prime Canon. We also still have Star Trek Phase II fan series running which as with the novels, are helmed by truly adept craftsmen.

This post has been edited by max88: 05 February 2010 - 10:16 AM

[Ronin of Fire]

 trek forever, on 30 November 2009 - 11:20 PM, said:

No alteration has taken place to the original timeline.

No Alteration? I'm thinking of a pretty big one.

[NMdum1]

There's two possibilities which present themselves - it is possible to imagine a scenario where not a lot has changed apart from the absence of the Vulcans, particularly Tuvok from Voyager (how deranged would Janeway likely have been then)? And other-wise the very human influenced Federation went the same way. If you note Starfleet is a very unmilitary organisation, it doesn't really have much in the way of a warmaking capability, Carriers, Marine Corps etc, there's no guarantee that they make much use of the advantages that they might gain from SpockPrime's presence or from any intel them could get on Nero's ship.

The other possibility is that Starfleet Intelligence pumped SpockPrime for information (I'd use mindmelding myself) and send out ships or Fleets to act accordingly based on what they already knew was going to happen, thus changing the entire timeline completely because Khan could have been picked up early from Ceti Alpha 5 and deposited somewhere else so no Wrath of Khan, V'Ger intercepted so not Motion Picture, the whale probe etc, etc, etc. It might conceivably make good relations with both the Klingons and Romulans more likely simply from mentioning "oi, there's a big wormhole over there next to Bajor and on the other-side there's some real big bad-asses and we're gonna have to work together to stop them." Potentially that means everything is different on Bajor and Kira Nerys grows up an artist instead of a terrorist and thus no DS9 or indeed no Maquis so no Voyager because the ship didn't have anybody to chase in the Badlands. It might also mean that the Federation has a heads-up on the Borg and therefore Magnus and Erin Hansen know more about what they are investigating and little Annika stays home with Aunt Irene and never becomes Seven of Nine.

I expect that they'll try and do both, have your cake and eat it and it will probably end up making no sense to nobody because we Trek anoraks will try and follow both timelines, particularly given that Paramount won't want to overcomplicate things so inevitably any future t.v. spin-off will inevitably be something based on this new timeline. New entrants to the franchise will think that this is Star Trek and won't bother looking back into the past and they can make a fortune out of making bad semi-remakes of things as t.v. movies and such like "re-imaginings" rather than have to use their brains to come up with something new within what I would conventionally consider Trek, i.e. everything before Trek XI. I would point as evidence to the Doctor Who franchise where the existence of eight previous Doctors (nine if you count Peter Cushing in the movie versions) are nothing more than a technicality to the average NewWho fan, i.e. Joe Public or a seven-year old boy - a very bad development as NewWho ISN'T A PATCH on the original (my heart will always belong to Tom Baker.)

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

Well I lost mine to Jon Pertwee, but I get what you're saying.

The thing is I kind of trashed this idea of keeping the Prime Universe timeline going because I believed it to be a fools' errand - much like the whole "Save Enterprise" initiative that just seems to keep limping on. HOWEVER, having seen how little anybody here is interested in discussing the new Abramsverse - even wanting to try and predict what happens next, I am inclined to think that the serious trekker still prefers the Prime Universe, and if the number of new Prime Universe books being announced are anything to go by, it looks like the Prime Universe is very much alive and kicking, even if none of it is appearing on film except in fan productions.

[NMdum1]

It's going to be a bland, slick, Hollywood crapfest with shiny spaceships and beautiful people played to the lowest common denominator and none of the high-minded portentiousness or treknobabble we knew. It'll be what Paramount considers to be a modern or hip version of whatever TOS was, I think I remember Bryan Forbes saying something at some point about wanting to do a 'laid back', 'upbeat', 'optimstic' and 'fun' take on Star Trek, which is what I thought Enterprise was supposed to be and failed spectacularly. Of course any attempts to do this will probably fail as well because it's one thing to go and see an action adventure movie at the cinema that was basically a PG-12 (British certification) that would keep people over a reasonably large age group quiet for two hours and something somebody is prepared to choose to watch week-in-and-week-out and get devoted about given there are so many other choices out there now-a-days. Supporting a t.v. show on this model won't work because it requires too much from the general audience it would be aimed at and lends itself too well to the geek.

If it were me I would say "to hell with the general audience, they'll only come for the sweeps episodes and the season finales" and write something for grown-ups who have the brains to work out things for themselves and can handle the featured characters not being perfect. Perhaps something that considers the changed politics of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants now that the Vulcans, the so-called "intellectual puppets of the Federation" are not part of the scene offering a restraining hand, especially given that I would expect that in the aftermath of the Nerada incident Starfleet would start asking itself hard questions about how well it can defend itself and the Federation and toughen up quite a lot - the sort of questions that they should have been asking after the Dominion got beaten. Something running up to Khitomer with different circumstances, the Klingon-Romulan Treaty and its collapse and some of the intellectual territory covered in movies II-VI with a good mix of stand-alone TOS-style space mysteries or disasters and arc stories ala DS9 and probably Romulans as the big bad might just work. You could even perhaps work in something about the rather twisted relationship between the Cardassians and the pre-Occupation Bajorans (and you can imagine that Spock would probably mention something as important as the Bajoran Wormhole surely) to boot. You could include colonies and border problems and capitalism and liberal freedoms on the frontier in practice. Basically everything's up for grabs which is both freeing and depressing as well if you happen to loathe Enterprise and look nostalgically back on the days when DS9 actually happened, at least in the way we spent seven years watching.