[Chroniton]

Apart from in the munity, 'holonovel' Chatokay has not really stood up to Janeway effectively as a first officer. What were the writer's thinking? They turned a captian in the most infamous goriila army, (the Maquis) into a coward! Surely a real mutiny by the Maquis lead by Chakotay would have saved the early seasons of Voyager in the eyes of the fans and the ratings.

[Gibraltar]

Chroniton, on Feb 3 2009, 09:04 AM, said:

Apart from in the munity, 'holonovel' Chatokay has not really stood up to Janeway effectively as a first officer. What were the writer's thinking? They turned a captian in the most infamous goriila army, (the Maquis) into a coward! Surely a real mutiny by the Maquis lead by Chakotay would have saved the early seasons of Voyager in the eyes of the fans and the ratings.

Perhaps, so, but there would have been no coming back from that... no believable way of repairing the damage done to the Janeway/Chakotay command structure relationship.

I'm one of those who believe the show's phenomenal premise was squandered during the run of the series.

Yes, it would have ended with Chakotay dead or in the brig (unless the Maquis had won, a distinctly unlikely outcome) but it would have demonstrated the show had some stones.

[Chroniton]

And that Chakotay had some balls.

[Gibraltar]

I could never understand what the point had been of making some 1/3 of the ship's crew former Maquis if they never used that for anything! It had been intended as a means of creating inter-character conflict in a way that hadn't existed on TNG, perhaps more like the early seasons of DS9.

But nothing ever came of it. Purely wasted potential.

[Captain_Hair]

Chroniton, on Feb 3 2009, 12:04 PM, said:

Apart from in the munity, 'holonovel' Chatokay has not really stood up to Janeway effectively as a first officer. What were the writer's thinking? They turned a captian in the most infamous goriila army, (the Maquis) into a coward! Surely a real mutiny by the Maquis lead by Chakotay would have saved the early seasons of Voyager in the eyes of the fans and the ratings.

Gibraltar, on Feb 3 2009, 12:35 PM, said:

I could never understand what the point had been of making some 1/3 of the ship's crew former Maquis if they never used that for anything! It had been intended as a means of creating inter-character conflict in a way that hadn't existed on TNG, perhaps more like the early seasons of DS9.

But nothing ever came of it. Purely wasted potential.

While a mutiny would have been excessive for the story, the writers' dropping of the Fed/Maquis conflict was just plain lazy.

[trekkin']

I have to agree with the wasted potential and the laziness...It may even have been a matter of a focus group didn't like the Maquis at that juncture and they steered away from it. It would have been nice to see Janeway tested as a leader by the other crew. You know...she could have had to forcefully gain their respect and loyalty...Or the circumstances could have been made to seem more dire than...oh well...now we gotta find a way home. If perhaps Chakotay had been injured...or the ship was in a more ruinous condition....

Bah..whatever...

I still loved the show. I try not to pull them apart too much. I lose the ability to suspend my disbelief.

AND ...didn't Chakotay carry his stones around in a little medicine bag??

[Gibraltar]

trekkin', on Feb 3 2009, 02:53 PM, said:

I have to agree with the wasted potential and the laziness...It may even have been a matter of a focus group didn't like the Maquis at that juncture and they steered away from it. It would have been nice to see Janeway tested as a leader by the other crew. You know...she could have had to forcefully gain their respect and loyalty...Or the circumstances could have been made to seem more dire than...oh well...now we gotta find a way home. If perhaps Chakotay had been injured...or the ship was in a more ruinous condition....

Bah..whatever...

I still loved the show. I try not to pull them apart too much. I lose the ability to suspend my disbelief.

AND ...didn't Chakotay carry his stones around in a little medicine bag??

I always felt that we'd have been better served as viewers to have watched the misadventures of Captain Ransom and Equinox. At least those folks actually seemed to have had to face some ethical dilemmas and hardship.

I would rather Voyager have had a flavor similar to that of The Year of Hell, where the ship is battered and the crew has hard choices to make that didn't involve whether to eat what Neelix prepared that night or use some of their replicator rations.

Just my opinion, though.

[Chroniton]

Gibraltar, on Feb 3 2009, 07:58 PM, said:

I always felt that we'd have been better served as viewers to have watched the misadventures of Captain Ransom and Equinox. At least those folks actually seemed to have had to face some ethical dilemmas and hardship.

I agree! That episode really shows how out of tune with the realitie's of Voyager's situtaion the writers were. i thought Janeway and Ransom would have been a good couple. Genocide Janeway and Ruthless Ransom.

[Lynx6776]

Chroniton, on Feb 3 2009, 01:04 PM, said:

Apart from in the munity, 'holonovel' Chatokay has not really stood up to Janeway effectively as a first officer. What were the writer's thinking? They turned a captian in the most infamous goriila army, (the Maquis) into a coward! Surely a real mutiny by the Maquis lead by Chakotay would have saved the early seasons of Voyager in the eyes of the fans and the ratings.

I have to disagree here.

Chakotay was definitely not a coward. He was smart enough to realize that the only way to get out of the situation and get home was to cooperate with the Starfleet people.

A mutiny was out of the question because even if the Maquis could have taken over the ship, they might not have been many enough or skilled enough to run the ship for a couple of years to get home to the Alpha Quadrant. In that case they would also have to restrain the Starfleet people to Quarters or to the brig (I don't think that Chakotay would have killed them off) and that would also have been a waste of people necessary to run the ship.

We must also realize that the conflict between Starfleet and the Maquis was a political problem due to the policy of the Federation when it came to the area which they gave to the Cardassians in that peace treaty. Since that conflict was far away from the Delta Quadrant and since the Maquis and Starfleet were basically the same species (Humans, Vulcans, Bajorans and so osn) there were no need for hostilities between them.

As for Ransom, he was a loser and a nutcase. A miracle that they managed to survive for so long with that guy in charge.

[Chroniton]

Lynx6776, on Feb 4 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

As for Ransom, he was a loser and a nutcase. A miracle that they managed to survive for so long with that guy in charge.

Captain Ransom did the best he could given his conditions and resources. Nova class science vessels were the new Oberth, inter-planetary system travel only. Yes he went nuts but he got closer to home then Voyager did, and quicker. I agree with an earlier poster, we would have been better watching Star Trek Equinox rather then Voyager.

The universe is not all nicey nicey, solve with treaty and fly off like TNG and TOS.

[aussie trek mom]

I started getting into Star Trek by first watching Voyager i still hold that show dear to my heart, granted it could have have done with a lil more oomph but its up there as a favourite, specially all the borg conflicts.

[trekkin']

As I recall, we were probably nursing babies at the same time!!

Yeah...Voyager reruns with the first kid...watched the last eps with the second one... ahhh...good times!!

There are some blaring issues with Voyager, but all in all...I prefer it to DS9 and maybe even parts of ENT and well, certainly some of those early eps of ENT. Janeway rocked...I just would have liked to really see her take that bull by the horns...

[Maco Captain]

Lynx6776, on Feb 4 2009, 06:38 PM, said:

I have to disagree here.

Chakotay was definitely not a coward. He was smart enough to realize that the only way to get out of the situation and get home was to cooperate with the Starfleet people.

A mutiny was out of the question because even if the Maquis could have taken over the ship, they might not have been many enough or skilled enough to run the ship for a couple of years to get home to the Alpha Quadrant. In that case they would also have to restrain the Starfleet people to Quarters or to the brig (I don't think that Chakotay would have killed them off) and that would also have been a waste of people necessary to run the ship.

We must also realize that the conflict between Starfleet and the Maquis was a political problem due to the policy of the Federation when it came to the area which they gave to the Cardassians in that peace treaty. Since that conflict was far away from the Delta Quadrant and since the Maquis and Starfleet were basically the same species (Humans, Vulcans, Bajorans and so osn) there were no need for hostilities between them.

As for Ransom, he was a loser and a nutcase. A miracle that they managed to survive for so long with that guy in charge.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I agree with you 100%. Chakotay showed good judgment by joining his crew with Janeway's. The conflict was only meant to exist in the first few eps. After that, it became necessary to move the story along by having cooperation amongst the crew.

This post has been edited by Maco Captain: 10 February 2009 - 11:01 AM

[Gibraltar]

Maco Captain, on Feb 10 2009, 08:00 AM, said:

You took the words right out of my mouth. I agree with you 100%. Chakotay showed good judgment by joining his crew with Janeway's. The conflict was only meant to exist in the first few eps. After that, it became necessary to move the story along by having cooperation amongst the crew.

Then what was the point?

I firmly believe the concept as it was intended was to have the Maquis perspective of doing what needed to be done, damn the consequences to others highlighted much more often than it ultimately was. It seems an awfully contrived premise otherwise.

Granted, I agree Chakotay took the high ground in taking up the responsibility of a Starfleet officer once again, and forcing himself back into that mold after years of living as a renegade. However, I'd have like to see him stand up to Janeway more often and take a stand on his principles of necessity versus the Starfleet mantra of the Prime Directive.

Just my $.02

[Chroniton]

Gibraltar, on Feb 10 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

I firmly believe the concept as it was intended was to have the Maquis perspective of doing what needed to be done, damn the consequences to others highlighted much more often than it ultimately was. It seems an awfully contrived premise otherwise.

However, I'd have like to see him stand up to Janeway more often and take a stand on his principles of necessity versus the Starfleet mantra of the Prime Directive.

I agree Some of the choices Janeway made, (eg: The Void turning down the needed technology to escape because it was stolen and not taking food when they could. And oh yeah, saving the Ocampa from the Kazon by stranding her own ship at the far end of the delta quadrant, (heck even Tuvok had a problem with that one), and risking her ship on a personal vendetta against Captain Ransom).

In my opinion all that Janeway is good for is battles with the Borg. Chatokay with Seska as his first officer would have been better, better television, and a better deal for the crew as they wouldn't let samantics get in the way of getting home.

This post has been edited by Chroniton: 11 February 2009 - 04:40 AM

[aussie trek mom]

Chroniton, on Feb 11 2009, 08:36 PM, said:

I agree Some of the choices Janeway made, (eg: The Void turning down the needed technology to escape because it was stolen and not taking food when they could. And oh yeah, saving the Ocampa from the Kazon by stranding her own ship at the far end of the delta quadrant, (heck even Tuvok had a problem with that one), and risking her ship on a personal vendetta against Captain Ransom).

In my opinion all that Janeway is good for is battles with the Borg. Chatokay with Seska as his first officer would have been better, better television, and a better deal for the crew as they wouldn't let samantics get in the way of getting home.

The strategy of the Marqui, in essence was terrorism. Perhaps they reconsidered having a terrorist group taking over a startfleet ship. In my opinion Janeway represented much more, she remained calm, kept her crew together and positive. Heck i could go on forever. I liked her strength and determination, and enjoyed seeing her character evolve. Granted i felt chakotay could have been given some juicer parts, but like every other star trek series voyager also had some episodes we would rather forget....

[Chroniton]

Alot more, 'rather forget' then the other Trek shows...

[aussie trek mom]

I beg to differ <grin> its up there as my favourite with DS9 coming in a close second.

[NMdum1]

There is a very fine line to be tread with the Maquis. They are a combination of ex-Bajoran Resistance who felt the need to keep fighting no matter that Bajor had been liberated (Ensign Tabor was in this group), DMZ colonists who felt they were defending their homes (Chakotay's probably in this group), ex-Starfleet fellow travellers (B'Elanna belongs to this group although I am not sure where Kessik IV is in relation to Cardassian space so if it were close, she might have been a little bit paranoid as well) or merceneries with no reason other than the offer of payment (Tom Paris is definitely in this group, one of the many reasons I didn't care for him).

Because there are so many threads within the Maquis as a whole, you could imagine that there's going to be a lot of different opinions within the group of 20-30 Maquis who appear to have made it onto Voyager. They probably break into the following categories -

1. pragmatists who choose to cooperate to get home
2. zealots who refuse to have anything to do with Starfleet whatsoever (the Bajorans will probably belong in this group for the most part)
3. tough guys who are somewhere in the middle who will only go so far and would expect to have a lot more say than they probably got in the end

It seems really illogical not to at least acknowledge that in every group there are differences of opinion and given that the Maquis is a guerilla force, leadership is probably chosen and not promoted in any kind of professional way like a military would. It would have made sense if there was an episode between Caretaker and Parallax dealing with the step in-between, getting the Maquis into uniform and how resistant to Janeway's plans to make them a Starfleet crew they would logically be. I can well imagine a boot camp scenario where Tuvok is trying to force discipline on people who either are very resistant to it because they disagree with it, the hardcore element or because they couldn't hack it the first time, B'Elanna particularly. I would imagine she would also be one of the loudest voices questioning Chakotay's sanity and probably one of the last to agree to put on a uniform and accept the regulations that come with it, being that she is one of the few that seems to have actually been in Starfleet at some point in the past, even if it was as an Academy dropout. We might also have the chance to learn a little bit more about how the Maquis worked and the people that chose to join as well as the personal positions of the career Starfleet types who would have to work with these people. Did Janeway ever bother to ponder what made people join or did she just stick to the partyline and condemn it outright as terrorism (which it actually was).

The issue that the colonists endangered were offered the opportunity to resettle was also ignored, which they should have taken and given that they did not take the opportunity to ensure their own safety, there is a big question mark as to whether anybody should be remotely sympathetic about their situation in the first place.

Certainly utilising people like B'Elanna, Ayala and Seska (whilst she was still on-board) as alternative viewpoints putting less simple, idealistic or Starfleet solutions to the Captain would have been interesting. In the end by sticking them in uniforms at the end of the Pilot the writers sacrificed the politics inherent in the situation which was unwise given that several military forces on Earth have incorporated terrorist organisations, the Israeli Defence Force integrated Haganah and other similar groups, many of whom conducted terrorist attacks on British forces sent to what was the Palestine Mandate to maintain law and order and keep the Jews and the Arabs apart, the Original IRA and Irish Volunteers were integrated into the Irish Army in 1922, there are other examples but those are the two that come straight to mind. It was certainly never an easy process for anybody and often led to political battles within the leadership as to basic policy, the outlook of the forces i.e. how anti-British it was going to be, whether they accepted UN Resolutions on Arab settlements etc. They also sacrificed any pretence at a moral content. Many of these people, B'Elanna is a great example, who are fired up with passion about what the Cardassians did to other societies, if you have a group of 20-30 people who are committed to a revolutionary struggle to free oppressed peoples (forgive me if that sounds Marxist, its not meant to be) then that could be a hell of a headache for somebody like Janeway who is very conservative and by-the-book and doesn't want to break the Prime Directive at any cost. Thirty Days should not be the only really important instance of the Prime Directive being broken where there are lasting consequences, i.e. loss of rank. It also takes a long time for strangers to get to trust each other and understand and respect each other's methods and Janeway had no respect for any other point of view but her own when it came down to it, she was too rigidly Starfleet for that.

I don't think any of this would have required a full-scale mutiny, a principalled campaign more likely. Had the events of Survival Instinct gone differently and Seven wasn't returned to the Collective and instead remained severed six years earlier and somehow found them, I can't imagine the Maquis would have agreed to let her stay aboard in a million years. A more organised approach might have led to 'work to rule', "we won't do anymore than we absolutely have to unless a, b and c happens" and would have resulted in a retained identity and better use of those identifiable Maquis as well as testing B'Elanna's leadership abilities and management skills having been catapaulted into a decision making role she hadn't, on paper, earned. A mutiny would have been disastrous because it would have meant locking up or killing those who wouldn't cooperate and if you simply lock up, it takes far too many resources to guard the prisoners, they would have been marooned and then the Maquis would have most likely reverted to mere piracy, especially if Seska had remained undetected, taking whatever they felt like to get back home, under-manned, under-resourced and most likely disatisfied with Chakotay's more moderate instinct. As soon as you go down the road of mutiny or coups, you almost guarantee an endless supply tearing the group apart until there's nothing left.

Certainly there is plenty to talk about but it is clear that the Executives did not want to know about it, they wanted a steady, conventional TNG-like show and ensured they hired enough TNG veterans to get it. Its a real pity because the best people Star Trek had to offer at that point, all seem to have went to DS9.

[Chroniton]

But what is the point of mixing the crews if there is no real conflict. Yes a full blown munity is extreme but the odd, real fist fight between the two crews would work just as well, and Janeway and Chakotay keeping thier people inline is what Voyager needed. The Maquis are officaily classed as terrorists by the Federation, Janeway should actually folow proceedure and brig the lot of them till they got home where they would be put on trail and handed over to the Cardassians for sentencing, then a trail then execuation or failing that sent to New Zealand prison colony.