[ST:E]

I think from when Paramount wanted it to be released they should have said, ok so were going up against the biggest properties on earth - James Bond, Harry Potter, and the seccond Lord of the Rings epic, there's enough depth and enough paths to explore in the 24th centuary that Star Trek could have quite easily been a worthy adversary to Lord of the Rings - it needed far more Global advertising - It needed all of what Radardog mentioned and it needed something that would rock the fanbase and something that would change the Star Trek univerese forever - it failed to do even the fanbase justice - it was a testiment to just how comfortable the Producers and Studio had got with Star Trek.

Something that finally has been sorted by a new Paramount Pictures, and a new direction for the Star Trek franchise time will tell if Star Trek XI will be the Casino Royale of Star Trek.

This post has been edited by ST:E: 14 November 2006 - 06:53 AM

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

Radardog, on Nov 14 2006, 03:03 AM, said:

We had this big threat to the Romulans and some giant weapon that could destroy Earth, but they never even came close to Earth, and for some reason (editing, directing, story... I'm not sure) there was never any real threat that Shinzon was going to win. Maybe because we found out he was going to die and knew that he could only take everyone out with him. Maybe it's because we didn't care about Shinzon enough to really feel his rage. Maybe it's because there didn't appear to BE any rage. Just revenge.

Every other plot element was indicative of other things we had seen before. We had Data dealing with yet another "Data." We had Riker and Troi dealing with their relationship and worse, we had Troi being the sexual desire of a mind-raping lunatic.

There are some very good points there. I kind of agree with ST:E that Shinzon's ship should have got right next to Earth, and I feel that the fantastic Scorpion craft was woefully under-used, and squadrons of them should have been seen in some aerial scenes swooping down the streets of San Fancisco and taking pot-shots at civilians. If anyone didn't care enough about Shinzon it was probably because his own backstory is told in an exposition, and I agree with ST:E that he could have been shown onscreen suffering as a slave and Imperial foot soldier in the Dominion war. More time was also needed for Picard to have developed an 'emotional' attachment to his clone ~ it was there in the novel but not on the big screen. Picard should have been seen being prepared to lay down his life for Shinzon in return for Shinzon promising to turn himself about and carry on the 'Picard legacy' ~ he could have been turned around at the eleventh hour. IMO, the wrong people died at the end of Nemesis, it should have been Picard only. Now that would have been a truly different kind of an ending!! I would have gladly sat through two hours of epic Trek than having sat through two hours of total dreck which I did watching LOTR: The Twin Towers, that truly was three hours of my life I'll never get back again!

Given that the movie was already 12A, they should have put the turbolift mind-rape scene back in, and actually had Shinzon abduct Troi and out her in some real danger. After all, he took Picard with no resistance, he could easily have beamed Troi out of her marriage bed and been a real menace to her! IMO, that would have given Sirtis a nice slice of the action with Troi having to get herself out of trouble as she did in Face of the Enemy ~ easily Troi's finest moment onscreen.

Oh, and there needed to be far more Romulan action and warbirds!!

[ST:E]

It had so much potential to be a really really awsome movie, let alone the single most epic Star Trek film - it could have re-written the book on how people percive Star Trek if the producers only realised what Star Trek could do beyond what had already been done.

It could have wiped up at box office and destroyed Lord of the Rings - god if only i was there i'd make such a bloody good movie - i'd tell Berman and Spiner to stay away from writing it too - just leave it to Logan and someone else of his calibour aswell as a fan of Trek.

I would have destroyed the Star Trek Univerese then over the course of this movie it would be rebuit and the point of Star Trek would be clear - humanitys advance to a better tomorrow.

i'd have called it: Star Trek X: Through A Glass, Darkly

begining on the Enterprise-D 10 years ago - picard is attacked by the romulans and cloned. (using the technology utalised in X3 to make the cast look younger)
Seeing Picard being cloned would have been good too, similar to how they began FC with the assimilation of Picard.
seeing Shinzon being beaten by the romulans so you as an audience feel his anger.
More about Shinzon's past
More Death and distruction on romulus,
More emotion from Picard
no pointless rapes - why was shinzon doing this? there was no point and it didn't help the story
romulus being destroyed
the romulan millitary fighting alongside hundreds of starfleet ships
Scorpion attack ships blowing up innocent civilians, buildings - a way to convey the terror attacks in the real world
The Enterprise crashing into the Scimitar
The Titan
Earth being almost destroyed
Klingons
Deep Space Nine cast
Big epic battles in space and on land
The Mushroom shaped space dock falling into the atmosphere and then crashing into a city.
Argo's a plenty on earth defending the population by the advancing reman troops.
no B4 crap
picard dying at the end in a heroic sacrifice for Shinzon - so that he could carry on the family line.
Picard puts the emergancy beam out thing on shinzon and he transports over to the Enterprise.
flashbacks as Picard dies, looking back at all the episodes and film adventures he's had, then the scimitar blows up, throwing every ship around it back.
then the silence sweeping through the Enterprise and other ships as they realise picard has died.
Shinzon being taken away dealing with Picards death, looking up at the stars, dreaming of what has been and what might still become.
the hope for the future as Earth remembers and honnors the lost and the living in a ceremony outside the federation HQ.
The Empty Enterprise Bridge with the door opening and a new captain waling through
The End

[mightycaptain]

Picard saving Shiznon would not have been as accepted as you may think. Shinzon was the villian after all, even if he was the only other living Picard.

But I like the idea of a prelude like the aforementioned X3. But only with Picard and maybe Riker or Troi.

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

ST:E

That's best thing you've come up with in a long time! I was almost crying at the end of that!

As for saving Shinzon not being popular...............

NOT killing the villain, but showing mercy and compassion? Converting the villain to the cause of Right? Personal sacrifice and honour? The needs of the One outweighing the needs of the Many?

I can't think of anything more completely Star Trek than that!!

[ST:E]

Thats my vision for Star Trek - in my mind thats a reboot - dosn't matter what era its set in (TOS is prefered because of its pulling power and status among the critics and wider world) something that completely destroys the message of Star Trek and at the same time builds it back up during the course of the movie and explaining what Star Trek is all about - to an audience of fans and non fans - its also a hole in one! i made jules agree with me - now thats a Star Trek story all into itself!

BTW, as Jules put it - Picard saving Shinzon would have been 100% Star Trek aswell as such a shock and such a Picard thing to do that it would have imortalised him in a blase of glory and Star Trek 10 as one of the biggest supprises of the year and it would have been different to baddy does something bad and then gets killed - all through this movie you'd be like well shinzon is obviosly going to fail and then die, but no, a shock - the hero dies saving both his future and his Nemesis - as far as i recall, nothing like this has been done in the movies in a genra like Star Trek's in the end - three films or one film - the baddy always dies - its a cliche and its boring - lets have the nemesis survive and the hero die - hero's are only really complete when they die - legends are born - Picard would have become a legend!

This post has been edited by ST:E: 15 November 2006 - 06:37 PM

[marty]

Holy crap ST:E That is an awesome synopsis. That would've been one hell of a movie. Too bad.

[ensign edwards]

Quote

Scorpion attack ships blowing up innocent civilians, buildings - a way to convey the terror attacks in the real world

That's not a bad idea per sae but the point of the movie was personal rivalry between Picard and Shinzon not the danger to earth.

Picard sacrificing himself for Shinzon? I commend your bravery for even suggesting it but I would not be in favour of it, for one thing it wouldn't make any sense without radically changing Shinzons character.

[ST:E]

ensign edwards, on Nov 16 2006, 08:02 PM, said:

That's not a bad idea per sae but the point of the movie was personal rivalry between Picard and Shinzon not the danger to earth.

What Nemesis needed to have was a story greater than just the TNG charicters - there needed to be a greater thret so that the audience watching would be gripped by either the charicter driven plot or the bigger plot, nemesis was potentialy this huge event, it brougt to an end one of the most popular bits of Trek to an end, to get an audience trhilled by Star Trek you can't do that basing it on two ships - the Enterprise and the Schimitar - films in 2002 and today need to be big - a ship based movie isn't big - there was no real thret to anyone in Nemesis.

Quote

Picard sacrificing himself for Shinzon? I commend your bravery for even suggesting it but I would not be in favour of it, for one thing it wouldn't make any sense without radically changing Shinzons character.

hmm i disagree, all of the new charicters in Nemesis - shinzon for example - were alot more than good guys and bad guys - shinzon was not a baddie, he was a confused teen/young adult trying to find himself - Picard in my version would sacrifice himself because he believes the best in people - a very Star Trek esqu story.



Having the villan being saved by the hero would imortalise Picard and intrige the audience as to what this shinzon charicter will do now.



epic vision, epic story to send out - for its time - an epic part of the Star Trek franchise - Nemesis was no way near that

This post has been edited by ST:E: 16 November 2006 - 06:27 PM

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

ensign edwards, on Nov 16 2006, 08:02 PM, said:

Picard sacrificing himself for Shinzon? I commend your bravery for even suggesting it but I would not be in favour of it, for one thing it wouldn't make any sense without radically changing Shinzons character.

The whole point is that the sacrifice would be the catalyst that would enable Shinzon to see the error of his ways and to change. Villians ~ at least the interesting ones ~ are not entirely evil. Logan's script had Shinzon very mcuh conflicted over what he feels towards Picard, and in fact he has a strong attraction towards him and desire to gain Picard's approval ~ unfortunately that aspect also fell victim to Baird's swingeing edits.

[Radardog]

Wow, this movie's getting better by the post. Interesting how a boardroom of people who get paid to do this stuff can't come up with anything better than they do.

Picard's death for Shinzon would have made for a very confusing ending to the general public, but let's be honest, it's definitely a Picard thing. I mean, this story could have had such depth if Picard could find the potential in Shinzon, the angry, revenge-driven, aborted fetus of the Romulan Empire. Talk about good Star Trek.

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

^^^Well that's my long-term fanfiction project right there!

To me, it seemed completely obvious to cap off TNG with Picard's sacrifice ~ I mean, let's face it, the general public are never really what Star Trek caters for in any case. Since, there were so many rumours abounding that Nemesis was going to be TNG's last outing anyway ~ and in the end that proved to be entirely true, it should have been Picard's last outing. In many ways, Logan had invisaged the perfect ending to the Picard story arc that began with Generations with him receiving the news that his only blood relatives (Robert and Rene) had died in a fire at the family farm. In that movie he talks about his regret over the Picard line dying with him, and how relieved he had been that Robert had had a son before the catastrophe. Had he saved Shinzon, he would have left behind him the legacy of a virile young man with loads of potential and who could have carried on the Picard legacy.

Still...**sigh**..what might have been!

[ensign edwards]

Quote

What Nemesis needed to have was a story greater than just the TNG charicters - there needed to be a greater thret so that the audience watching would be gripped by either the charicter driven plot or the bigger plot, nemesis was potentialy this huge event, it brougt to an end one of the most popular bits of Trek to an end, to get an audience trhilled by Star Trek you can't do that basing it on two ships - the Enterprise and the Schimitar - films in 2002 and today need to be big - a ship based movie isn't big - there was no real thret to anyone in Nemesis.

No real threat to anyone. Except all our beloved TNG cast. Sometimes making it smaller makes it more personal and intense. Sometimes 2 ships is more epic then 2000.

[Radardog]

ensign edwards, on Nov 19 2006, 12:37 PM, said:

No real threat to anyone. Except all our beloved TNG cast. Sometimes making it smaller makes it more personal and intense. Sometimes 2 ships is more epic then 2000.

I agree and disagree at the same time.



A submarine-type movie, where we have two large, slow moving ships locked in mortal combat trying to out-maneuver each other and stay alive... that's deeply personal and intense. This is the formula Wrath of Kahn went for.



A movie where two ships with a short space battle where large explosions are the goal... meh...



Nemesis was no submarine movie.



And here's the thing that's so wrong about the threat in Nemesis. While we all love the TNG characters... it's what they stand for that we love, not just their person. If Picard was taken out trying to save Earth from the brink of Shinzon's attack, then we would still love Picard and would be satisfied that he paved the way for a continuation of what he stands for. Intead, Nemesis gave us little to believe in or care about. Just putting characters in jeopardy is not enough.

[Maco Captain]

The conflict between Shinzon and Picard.

[CharlieTucker]

Will and Deanna wedding

[Maco Captain]

CharlieTucker, on Aug 8 2007, 01:37 PM, said:

Will and Deanna wedding

That was definitely a good thing .... and it was about time, right?

[wildcard1377]

^Yes it was...and one of the best aspects of this movie.

[Elf]

I enjoyed the space battle in the nebula.

Will and Deanna's wedding was a good part of the movie.

[JayTheTrekkie]

The space battle was my vote

Ya, it was about time that Riker and Troi got married and the same with Riker finally getting his own command